To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

onagar - Yes, I do think hey should look. I think if it is implemented as a method of ensuring that it is an informed decision then it makes sense to have to look at the screen before you can sign off that you fully understand what you are undertaking. I can understand that there may be certain circumstances that would require exemption which was why I was wondering if that what the question about rape was about wrt the situation in Texas.

goodnightmoon how do you think the inclusion of pro-life counselling would have assisted the people in your examples?

bumbley are you suggesting that before you do anything like drive your car, eat some food, get dressed in the morning, you sit down and watch a video about the consequences of those things for people elsewhere in the world? I don't believe you.

Why would there be an exemption for rape, bubbly? That is illogical. Presumably you would not allow such an exemption.

I don't see how it would force her to change it. If she is sure about her decision and that it is the right one then why would a picture change her mind? I can only see it changing someone's mind if they aren't sure and I don't think that is a bad thing if it spares them any regret they may have felt if they went through with it without being certain it was the right decision.

Why would I need to sit down and do it everyday SQ - I'm aware of where my food/clothes/petrol comes from.

I don't believe I indicated that I was unsympathetic.

bumbley do you think that pregnant women should have to watch videos of birth, videos of women undergoing tears up to the worst possible, videos of corrective surgery afterwards, and listen to women talking about loss of bladder / bowel control, and hear all about the psychological and psychiatric problems that can occur with pregnancy, how long they can go on for and how they are treated, and what they can mean for a person's life, and all about SPD and backache and hyper-emesis and everything else? Up to and including the risk of death?

If not, why not?

Do you think a woman should have to watch a video of an abortion before she has one? That's the equivalent of what you are comparing it to - not looking at a scan.

Bumbley,
If you think women should be made to look at the screen so they make the right decision, why do you think rape victims should be exempt? Do you think a 14 year old rape victim should be made to look at the screen and have it described to her?
Also do you agree with Chamdellina that women should not be told of the risks involved in pregnancy as these risks are a result of a natural process or do you think a woman should be given all the information to help her make an informed decision.?

And it doesn't bother you, bumbley? If it doesn't bother you, I don't think you really can know the whole story. I think you should be made aware of the whole story, in as graphic a way as possible. And if after that, you still want to buy those products, I think you should have to talk personally to some of the people who have lost family members as a result of these things. I think there should be a long drawn out period where you are shown these things in great detail. If after that you still want to do them, well I suppose I'll have to let you, but I hope you feel absolutely awful about it every time you use those things, absolutely sick to the stomach with guilt.

That strikes me as a tremendously positive outcome

Bumbley women are more likely to die in pregnancy and childbirth than during an abortion. Do you think women going for abortion counselling should be told this. Do you think pregnant women should be told this, and then told to go home and consider if they really want to continue with the pregnancy? You either want women to have all the facts, or you do not?

bumbley hasn't said that rape victims should be exempt, I would assume that she would not support any such exemption, as it would be illogical to do so based on her views in previous posts.

out of interest - has anyone actually ASKED women who've undergone this decision whether they needed more counselling?

I don't mean one-off anecdotes on here which, while sometimes heart-breaking, are not really representative of the thousands of women who make this decision each year.

Has anyone done a proper survey about whether women feel they have adequate support and if not, how it could be better provided?

Why is it up to politicians to decide what we "need" when they could actually be consulting patients?

Actually lets take it further - should they watch a video of an abortion, show women who are suffering complications after an abortion, talk to women about any psychological and psychiatric problems they have had after their abortion and how it has impacted on their life up to and including the risk of suicide because they may have regretted it? No? I didn't think so.

A side note, but it is ironic that America makes it so difficult for women to get contraception and abortions, yet during pregnancy a woman in America is at the greatest risk of being murdered.

Very good point TYV

Bumbley do you accept that abortion carries less risk that pregnancy and birth?

bumbleymummy thank you for admitting that you want pregnant women to be forced to look at foetuses to stop them having abortions. Now we know don't we.

I think we need to give you and those with related opinions a better forum to air their views. I'd like to see a regular one hour evening slot on national TV so that everyone knows what it is you and those others stand for.

It's ok SQ I do feel pretty awful about them and, as I said, I do as much as possible to minimise my impact because I am informed - I don't ignore them and pretend they aren't true because it's easier not to face the truth.

I have emailed my MP because I believe women should not be bullied when they are vulnerable and this is the underlying intent of this policy. It's crap.

Bumbley,
I asked do you think we should tell women the fact that if they continue with the pregnancy they are more likely to suffer ill health (both physical and mental) and die than if they have an abortion? because that is the actual truth of the matter, abortion is a far safer option than pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing.
The youngvisitor,
Not exactly what you are looking for, but a danish study looked at almost four hundred thousand women before and after either childbirth or abortion. The group that had an abortion showed no increase in mental health issues, whereas those that had the child had an increase of almost 100% in mental health problems. However in denmark abortion is not an issue, and once when a GP refused to refer someone for an abortion it made the national news, and led to everyone withdrawing from her practice.

I don't think that you are fully informed, bumbly. I don't believe that you are really getting the full picture. I think that you need much more information. I think that you need the most heart-rending and upsetting information that I can find. And then some more. And then maybe a little more. I won't really be satisfied until you stop using these things entirely, or truly understand what you are doing to the point that you are reduced to a wreck about it every second of every day.

kelly, are you still banging on? I thought chandellina had pretty much summed up why your argument isn't relevant.

TYV, apparently there was a phone in yesterday/daybefore ( losing track of time!!) and several women felt they had been moved through the system with very little sympathy. I agree that it would be interesting to see a survey but I think that even 1 woman being let down is 1 too many.

SQ - what are you on about now? What difference does it make? Or are you going to suggest that everyone gets encouraged to have an abortion because it's safer?

Onagar - Where did I say I wanted it to stop them having abortions? Nice little attempt at twisting there (typical pro-choicer!)I said I wanted it to ensure informed choice. If it stops a woman because she realises that she doesn't actually want to go through with it then surely that is a good thing? Or would you rather she regretted it afterwards when there was nothing she could do about it?

Now offering counselling is bullying? Good grief!