To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

kelly, chandellina quoted from her directly and she said thats he wanted to make it compulsory for GPS to offer it but women could still say no. If you want to produce a quote that says something different then please do.

I don't see why you're interested in what the woman should feel once she's stopped being an incubator. What if she regrets having a child?

I assume you foster children. You must be doing something to help these children you wish to be born at any cost, bumbleymummy.

I've just had a reply from my MP and she's going to vote no! She said this bill is in very dangerous territory and taking a step back into the dark ages. I think I love her (I do actually she's kind of great ).

i think this discussion of understanding abortion risks vs. understanding pregnancy risks is a real side show. Abortion is a medical procedure. Birth needn't be, and by the time you do it you do have quite a vast amount of information from your midwives, GP, etc.

You also have nine months to go through and get prepared for the emotional and physical complexities of having a child.

I'm sure many cosmetic surgeons offer counselling - I don't see what the big deal is to make sure women seeking abortion have access to advice.

So you do not think women should be told about the risks of continuing with the pregnancy, despite the fact that a woman is more likely to suffer ill health and even death from pregnancy and childbirth than abortion. I do not know about your medical staff, but mine simply tell me not to worry when I ask about the risks.

but frankly i think it will always be a struggle to offer women any kind of advice when it comes to abortion. No one wants to be seen as denying women their choice, so most health professionals acknowledge that they steer away from fully discussing the birth option when a woman seeks abortion.

Of course we don't want the opposite - organisations that only promote the birth option and vilify abortion.

It's a tricky topic for sure.

Goodnightmoon, I think this is a very brave posting, and that people who think counselling is unnecessary are somewhat complacent. It forces a pause for thought, and everyone needs that; we can all be stampeded by panic, and none of us need that.

I used to work for an organisation which offered counselling to women with unwanted pregnancies in a state where abortion was illegal. The woman in charge was a model of generous counselling, but her subordinate was fairly sure abortion was the right choice for most of our clients, partly because of her understandable sense of outrage about the political situation and misogyny behind the legal ban - but this did mean that she pushed it with some, though not overtly - it was more insidious than that. I remember a 13-year-old, where the father was her stepbrother... but she didn't want a termination, though her mother and the counsellor pushed her that way and even offered bribes int he way of new clothes, while the counsellor smiled. The mother IMHO shouldn't even have been the ROOM. I think it probably is right to safeguard women from 'counselling' by organisations which actually provide the terminations... but mine didn't do that.

They already have access to advice and all the necessary information. Just none of that at presents includes what god thinks of your great wickedness.

Wow Michelle - A bit insensitive after what goodnightmoon posted :( Some people do have sympathy for others - you got some yourself when you shared your story.

FWIW yes, I may foster or adopt in the future. It's something we have talked about and a close family member does it.

Taking religion out of the equation would be helpful IMO

kelly - i think one difference is that pregnancy and birth are normal parts of our biology. They don't involve a medical procedure per se. If you undergo any operation in this country you will have to sign a document saying you understand the risks. That isn't the case when you labour and birth a child. Otherwise it would be sort of like explaining the risks of life in general - by the way, it is going to end in death, very likely preceded by ill health.

bumbleymummy, So there is no mistake I have a simple question. Do you think it is right that the woman should be made to look at the scan?

"I don't see what the big deal is to make sure women seeking abortion have access to advice."

But that's not what's at issue - if Dorries had stood up and called for £0,000,000 to be poured into counselling services I would be applauding all the way.

The issue is we have NO idea who will be providing this counselling, what their agenda will be, how women will be safeguarded to ensure the counselling really IS independent, and it's also very unclear whether it will be compulsory or not (Dorries has made confusing statements about this.

THAT'S what people are objecting to. Brushing those worries under the carpet does no-one any favours.

death and illness are also part of our biology, does not mean we want them to happen. besides these risks are real risks of pregnancy, saying that we should not tell women the risks of pregnancy because these risks are a part of a normal biology is not logical. If a woman is not make an informed choice, she needs all the information, and counsellors will be wrong if they skip the risks involved with pregnancy as these risks are normal. At the end of the day a woman is at greater risk from pregnancy than abortion, natural or not, and she has a right to know this.
Bumbley,
So you do not foster now?

Firstly the risks of pregnancy and childbirth are not told fully to pregnant women. There is a huge list of things that I had no idea about until they happened to me or my friends. I think this with-holding of information from pregnant women is terrible, frankly.

Secondly, the risks of abortion are fully given to each patient, or they are supposed to be. Via the two doctors and associated medical people who see the patient. The process has been explained by many people on this thread. It is not legal in the UK to perform a medical procedure on someone without fully informing them of the risks.

Thirdly, bubbley, do you genuinely believe that nothing you do as a person living in the UK is having a detrimental effect on people including children living elsewhere? Assuming that you are a member of society, rather than living in a cave somewhere, you will be harming others. Just something for you to think about there.

michelle - you are insensitive, and naive to really think women always have all the information they need. off the top of my head, four close friends have had abortions:

one - aged 13, I totally support her parents forcing her to have it - she wanted to as well. Basically she had no choice though. if her parents had been religious nuts, she likewise might have been forced to have the child.

second - aged 36. fell pregnant by the man she ended up marrying a year later. Didn't consider it a convenient time to have a child. I still supported her though she acknowledged it was a selfish act. Sometimes we are selfish, that's life - I don't belive the baby's right to life came above her choice.

third - aged 30. fell pregnant accidentally by her fiancee. Panic situation. Relationship later broke down so surely all for the best. Maybe the pregnancy centred her mind that she didn't really want to spend her life with the man.

fourth - aged 22. With the man she later married but felt too young.

these are very typical examples. I support all of the choices made but there is definitely room in there particularly in the second example for some thought and consideration that could come from even a brief counselling session! I wouldn't say - all these women had all the information they needed. They acted mainly on gut reaction, which can often be the best way to make a decision, but not always.

onagar, I think of the scan as ensuring informed consent so I don't see the point in doing it if the woman isn't looking at it ( kind of like signing a legaldocument you haven't read for want of a better example) but I'm not sure how you can force someone to look at a screen.

Someone mentioned earlier about having to sign a form in texas before the scan to say if you'd been raped - was that to allow exemption?

No Kelly - do you? Shall we introduce another side argument about it?

I'm not sure how you can force someone to look at a screen.

One way is by refusing the abortion if they do not look.

But you seem to be avoiding the question. Which was Do you think it is right that the woman should be made to look at the scan?

You implied further back that it was a good thing, but I didn't want to put words in your mouth. I wanted to hear what you really think.

why not look at the screen? women have the ability to bear life - is it really so crazy to acknowledge that life, even when we want it dead? Is it better to pretend the embryo isn't really alive??

SQ - not sure where you think I've said I don't have an impact. I said that people should be aware of their impact. I am aware of the consequences of various things and try to minimise them as much as possible where I can. What I don't do is burymy head in the sand and think 'if I don't think about it then it doesn't happen/doesn't exist/isn't true'

The side arguments are starting to get a bit silly now - any chance we can drag it back to the main point?

I'm shocked to hear that potential insensitivity is an active concern of yours, bumbleymummy.

I do actually feel terrible for anyone who regrets a termination. I regretted mine deeply. I wanted to turn back time and be pregnant again so badly that I would fall over and scream in abject horror. I fell into such a deep, suicidal depression after my termination that I was signed off work for a year.

Believe me, your previous attempts to rip apart my decision to it's foundations are nothing compared to the hours I've spent agonizing over it myself. But it was and remains, the best decision. Not the right one. The best one.

Which is why I'm against anyone wishing to pile any more guilt and punishment onto anyone in the queue for an abortion. Some of us most unfortunately find our way into that situation and we should all be treated kindly, fairly and without judgement.

But I bet you were just saying that, weren't you?

Michelle, I would think you would have a bit more sympathy for others then if you found yourself in the same situation.

No I do not foster, nor do I support the idea that the health system should be manipulated into stopping women aborting. The good thing about this thread is that it shows the vast majority of people are against Dorries legilsation. i think when we contact our MPs we should link to this thread.

chandellina, why not look at the screen?

Because the purpose was to make the woman feel bad about her decision and perhaps force her to change it.