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20 months for false rape claim. any threads on this?

98 replies

mayorquimby · 28/08/2011 15:09

title says it all really. Two women colluded in a false rape claim and got found out and have been sentenced to 20 months for perverting the course of justice.
Seems about the right sentence to me when you take into account the collusion of the two women as being an aggravating factor.
Just wondering what others thought.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030471/Wicked-women-jailed-accusing-man-rape-showed-police-pictures-consensual-threesome.html

OP posts:
spiderpig8 · 31/08/2011 18:47

Posie ' spiderpig8.....I don't believe that for a second

what don't you believe, Posie? Confused

SardineQueen · 31/08/2011 18:51

So I go to the police and due to mental health problems (as the vast majority of false accusations are down to mental health problems) and tell them that I have been raped, however I do not name anyone as the person who raped me. Statistically that is almost certainly the end of the story.

This is as bad as going out and raping someone.

Balls.

spiderpig8 · 31/08/2011 18:59

Sardine my dear when you learn to read, you will see that my post talks about the effect on a man's life of being wrongly accused of rape.I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would be able to infer a connection between the first sentence and the second sentence about inventing a rape story.

SardineQueen · 31/08/2011 19:08

Oh yes I see.

So you would just as rather be raped as falsely accused.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you. My other post is pertinent here as well:

"I know two men who have raped people, and others generally know about it.

No-one had "shunned" them, their jobs are fine, everything is rosy.

I don't see dire consequences for any of the footballers who regularly get accused of this type of crime. In fact a team recently decided to "stand by" a man who had been convicted of child sex offences and only changed their minds when there was outcry."

HereBeBolloX · 31/08/2011 20:13

Very few women lie about rape.

Very many men rape very many women and get away with it.

I know which is the bigger problem.

All of you men on this thread, you are more likely to be raped by another man, than to be falsely accused of rape by a woman.

But both are very rare. Unlike the rape of women - 1 in 4 of us get raped or sexually assaulted, and hardly any of us evr get justice.

But that's OK. That's not worth worrying about. Let's focus all our worry on the tiny number of false allegations, and ignore the massive number of real, unpunished rape.

Because the thought that a man might go to prison for a crime he didn't commit, is much worse that the thought that a woman's psyche, self esteem, trust in humanity, ability to love and make normal relationships, might be damaged forever. Because men's suffering is more important than women's. So let's focus on that and ignore the suffering of women.

HereBeBolloX · 31/08/2011 20:14

Ah yes, the effect on a man's life of being falsely accused of rape.

It's terrible.

Whereas the effect on a woman's life, of being raped, which is much more likely and vastly more common.

Well it doesn't matter really does it? She's only a woman.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 01/09/2011 13:12

Right, lets take the very small minority that lie about rape.

I can't remember the stats, but a large percentage of those very few false rape claims are cases where the victim identifies the wrong attacker. Therefore, rape has taken place, but not by the person the victim has accused. Therefore, a crime has still taken place, but for whatever reason, the victim has accused the wrong person. Does the victim in this case deserve to be jailed?

What about those who genuinely believe they've been raped, through not remembering the night before, or through some form of mental illness which has caused them to believe they've been assaulted. In their mind, the attack has still taken place, even if it didn't physically. Do those victims still deserve to be punished?

What about the fact that, if you report a rape, you have a 6.7% chance of it ending in conviction. Do people really believe 93.3% of people reporting a rape are making it up? Funnily enough, all the stats point to false reports being between 3 and 6%. So let's say we have 100 cases, where 6 have been falsely reported. Rounding up the number, 7 of the true cases go to prison. So that's 13 men accounted for. What of the 87 men free to attack again?

Surely it makes more sense to look at achieving a 100% conviction rate for the crimes which haven't been "falsely reported" than looking at jailing every woman that makes a "false" rape claim?

mayorquimby · 01/09/2011 13:30

"the victim has accused the wrong person. Does the victim in this case deserve to be jailed? " no. And I'm not seeing any evidence that they are as a matter of practice.

"What about those who genuinely believe they've been raped, through not remembering the night before, or through some form of mental illness which has caused them to believe they've been assaulted. In their mind, the attack has still taken place, even if it didn't physically. Do those victims still deserve to be punished?" no. and once again I'm seeing evidence they are as a matter of practice.

"What of the 87 men free to attack again? " but there's nothing to say that these men are guilty of rape. A proportion of them will be a proportion of them won't be. I think both sides of the polemic have to begin to recognise that the absence of a conviction doesn't mean that the woman was automatically lying and thus falsely reporting, but also that just because a conviction has not been obtained and the woman was not making a false accusation that the man was guilty of rape.
For many of the cases the woman will be making legitimate allegations that she was raped but their may be circumstances regarding the issue of consent which mean that the jury have not been able to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. In which case the man is not guilty of rape as his guilt has not been proven, nor has the woman made a false allegation or attempted to pervert the course of justice or perjure herself.

"Surely it makes more sense to look at achieving a 100% conviction rate for the crimes which haven't been "falsely reported" than looking at jailing every woman that makes a "false" rape claim?"
Surely we should be striving for 100% convictions for all crimes. Making a false allegation of rape is a crime, I would like to see 100% of people who do this to be jailed. Similarly I would like to see 100% of men who are guilty of rape convicted.
The two crimes are completely seperate, one doesn't have to be sacrificed for the sake of the other.

Also just as an aside, as I'm always genuinely interested to hear others proposals regarding the conviction rates for rape as they are extremely low, what alterations would you make to the current system to try and improve them? I've always been of the belief that the laws governing rape are not the problem and that greater education of soceity at large is needed to debunk the rape myths as it is more often than not the juries who are accepting the narrowest of margins to slide a defendant through the door of "reasonable doubt" rather than their being any mechanics of law which are specific to the crim of rape. However other often indicate that they view the structure of the law as the problem, but I'm not quite sure what they would seek to change.

OP posts:
spiderpig8 · 01/09/2011 17:34

the low conviction rates for rape are becuase there is usually nobody else present and so it comes down to one person's word against another.In these circumatances , although the jury may tend to believe the woman, that is not good enough, they must be sure beyond ALL reasonable doubt.
The flip saide of the coin is that it is similarly difficult to prove a woman is lying, unless she keeps changing her story.

HereBeBolloX · 01/09/2011 19:52

"I think both sides of the polemic have to begin to recognise that the absence of a conviction doesn't mean that the woman was automatically lying and thus falsely reporting, but also that just because a conviction has not been obtained and the woman was not making a false accusation that the man was guilty of rape."

That's incredibly patronsing MayorQ, everyone knows that some of the men who get off, will not have been guilty of rape. But you are wrong to pretend that if a man has not been convicted of rape, that means he is "not guilty" of it - if you commit rape, or murder, or incest, or burglary, or anything else, you are guilty of it, not legally but morally and it's wrong to pretend otherwise. Seeing as how only 3 or 4% of rape allegations are false, that means the overwhelming majority of rapists are guilty as sin, whether the law finds them so or not. Our legal system has been set up to allow rapists to walk free to rape other women and declare that they are not rapists at all, but I see no reason to agree with rapists on their own assessments of themselves. Most rapists do not even have their rape reported - no-one ever calls them to account for their vile actions. But they are still rapists, whether the society that protects them, calls them that or not.

And as for the nonsense that juries don't have enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt - crap. They don't have enough evidence to convict beyond any doubt whatsoever. The bar is higher for guilt for rape, than for any other crime, including murder. And that is because deep down, most people really don't think a woman being raped is all that big a deal - that's what our hole is for. That's a vulgar and disgusting sentiment, but that really is how many people feel because we as a society are primed to identify and empathise with men and not women - do the Bechdel test every time you watch TV or go to the movies if you don't believe me - and juries find the real suffering of the rape victim, less moving and less horrifying, than the potential suffering of the rapist if he is sent to prison. And most of them subconsciously figure, you know what, rape's just a bit of sex gone too far, it's not pleasant, but it's not that big a deal, it's not worth ruining a (male) life for. Female lives just don't matter as much. And most juries are simply not aware of the damage rape can do, because the effects are so long term and nebulous. How many people know that rape victims are 3-4 times more likely to suffer depression than non-rape victims? And yet, that depression may happen ten or twenty years later and so seem unconnected with the rape. The fact that the woman may have dysfunctional relationships, may develop alcohol problems, may screw up her career, may develop problems with her parenting or with her marriage, may have all sorts of bad effects that are due to the rape happening, get lost because most people are completely unaware of the lasting and long term effects of rape and don't consider women's pain to be quite as awful as that of men anyway. Perhaps if juries were educated to know these things, then reasonable doubt rather than any doubt whatsoever, would be enough for them to convict; but I doubt it, because until women are portrayed as equally human as men in our culture, women and men will simply not feel as much empathy for a woman, as they do for a man.

ThePosieParker · 01/09/2011 20:21

HerBex. I think I love you.

MQ. I have lost all hope of ever having any respect for anything you write. People like you sat on juries and in police stations across this ;land are the reason rapists go free time and time and time again.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 02/09/2011 11:05

HerBeX, very well put.

MQ, in the example I gave you, I said the 6% of false claims were discounted. So that left 94 guilty men having claims made against them. Of that, only 7 went to prison. That leaves 87 free to rape again. And they will. Do you not think this needs challenging?

As for the woman "continually" changing her story. What about cases where the victim is threatened by the rapist, his friends or family, to change the story. Or where she remembers bits later than others. Are they discounted as making it up? There's several very good reasons a victim's story may change.

Pendeen · 02/09/2011 13:33

Surely the main issue has been lost in all the rambling debate about the merits or otherwise of rape vs false rape claims, detection / conviction rates for rapists, evidential rules, lazy juries or any of the other red herrings discussed on here.

Way, way OT.

A jury reached a verdict, no point second guessing unless you were on that jury. Most of what has been written in this thread s simply conjecture, prejudice and/or opinion.

Open another thread for discussing all the other issues.

The point of this thread

Is the sentence reasonable for the crime of a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

My opinion is no because the justice system we have - flawed as it is - is horribly tainted and corrupted by perjury and even more so when people conspire to commit perjury. I would liked to see such cynical machinations punished with longer terms.

HereBeBolloX · 02/09/2011 21:24

No, I think it's perfectly valid to discuss the issues around rape on this thread Pendeen

Because the media deliberately over-report false accusations and potentially false accusations of rape, and deliberately under-report real rape. 1/3 of young men believe that most rape accusations are false, when in fact only about 3-4% of them are.

That's why, whenever you see reports of false allegations of rape, it is worth discussing the context of them - the context is that up to 90% of all rapes are not ever reported, that of the ones which are, between 90-94% of rapists are getting away with it and that 1 in 4 women will be raped or sexually assaulted in her life.

It is worth discussing it every single time, because the molehill which is false rape allegation is made out to be Mt Everest by our media, while the Everest that is rape, is made out to be a molehill by our media. So every single time this comes up, it's worth mentioning, to re-configure the context.

Pendeen · 03/09/2011 13:14

the media deliberately over-report false accusations

I have great difficulty in believing that. Do you have any proof?

I think my point about OT is still valid, the AIBU question iwas about penalties for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice not the crime / verdict.

HereBeBolloX · 03/09/2011 13:23

Look at the number of reports of false allegations of rape, versus the number of reports of rape.

It's not 96% reports of rape versus 4% reports of false rape, is it?

mayorquimby · 05/09/2011 16:24

"MQ. I have lost all hope of ever having any respect for anything you write. People like you sat on juries and in police stations across this ;land are the reason rapists go free time and time and time again."

How so? What have I said that is so inflammatory or wrong, I'm genuinely puzzled, and would welcome the opportunity to address any of my opinions or ideas which could be considered anti-victim, to either defend them or examine them and understand what is wrong about them.

OP posts:
mayorquimby · 05/09/2011 16:29

"MQ, in the example I gave you, I said the 6% of false claims were discounted. So that left 94 guilty men having claims made against them. Of that, only 7 went to prison. That leaves 87 free to rape again."

And I'm saying that just because a claim is not false does not automatically equate to a guilty man. A claim can be genuine and the man can be not guilty of the crime.
I'm not saying that the 87 men not convicted are all innocent, but some of them will be. Just because a claim is made in good faith and is a genuine claim does not mean that the man is automatically guilty of the crime.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 05/09/2011 17:11

How does anyone know (better than the courts themselves) what percentage of allegations are fake?

Clearly there is strongly suspected and proved beyond reasonable doubt and a lot of rapists walk through this hole, but to say X men went to prison out of Y who were guilty is claiming to know who is guilty and who is not guilty.

HereBeBolloX · 06/09/2011 06:15

They know via a combination of independent research such as the British Crime Survey and police estimates. I don't know how the police know that 3-4% of all crimes are actually invented because I don't work for their research depts and don't know what methodology they use; but it's interesting that people always want to question how the police can possibly know that only 2-4% of rape allegations are false, when they are happy to accept that the police know that about 8% of burglary allegations are false.

ThePosieParker · 06/09/2011 07:59

A claim can be true that a man has raped a woman but he may not have raped her? MQ?

Beyond reasonable doubt is a massive burden on a jury and calling someone a rapist is a huge thing, it's not something that many people feel they can do unless it was a stranger down an alley..... Seems like date rape (or rape as I like to call it) is something people don't want to believe, it's much more convenient to think the man believed the woman was willing, than to admit he didn't give a shit what she wanted.

Until rape myths are busted juries will always err on the side of caution for the rapist and not justice for the victim.

larrygrylls · 06/09/2011 08:32

HerebeBollox,

I would question both numbers and, to be honest, especially the burglary ones. There are going to be false allegations of any crime where someone stands to profit. So, for burglary, insurance fraud is, I believe, very common and will get commoner as the recession deepens. For rape, revenge on an ex or denial to a partner of consensual sex with someone else would be strong motivations. I have no idea of either number but I am really dubious when someone comes up with these firm statistics of something that is clearly 100% unknowable.

Pendeen · 06/09/2011 17:08

herebebollox

Would it help if we changed the actual subject and made it instead, (for example) a case of fraud? To take away the heat, emotion and unrelated topics so we may concentrate on the subject?

The question related to a conviction for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice - something we should all be concerned about.

Is 20 months reasonable?

HereBeBolloX · 07/09/2011 21:57

Well Larry if you want to believe that her majesty's constabulary cook up dodgy crime figures, that's up to you. All research has a margin of error of course, but robust, consistent research is all we've got to go on and although it's going to have blips and errors, it's going to be broadly trustworthy as far as we know.

Pendeen I've no idea if the sentence is reasonable as I don't know what the normal sentence for perverting the course of justice is and I'm not really that interested. My interest in this thread, is the disproportionate focus of the media and most people, on the tiny problem of false allegations of rape, versus the enormous problem of real rape and the lack of justice for it. 90% of rapes go unreported, of the 10% which do get reported, 4% (to be generous) will be false allegations, but there's a 6% conviction rate. That's a massive problem and one I think the media and people in general should know about and talk about, rather than always focusing on the much smaller problem of false allegations. I mean, most men think that the chance of a woman accusing them falsely of rape, is higher than that of another man raping them. They're literally astonished when you tell them it's the opposite, because the media spend so much time telling them to be scared that a woman will falsely accuse them of rape and no time at all telling them that although they shouldn't be scared of another man raping them because it's relatively rare, it's certainly reasonable to me more scared of that scenario because the probability of it happening, is higher. How many men know that? How many parents warn their sons about that? Why aren't the media telling men that? Because they're too busy telling them what vicious manipulative liars women are, so that rapists can carry on raping women and getting away with it.

larrygrylls · 08/09/2011 07:08

Herbebollox,

I think that there is an instinctive abhorrence of the state jailing innocent people. It is what has led to the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of proof. There is a thread which runs throughout British justice (rightly, in my opinion) that it is better that 10 guilty men go free than that one innocent is jailed. On these threads anyone would think that this was a unique standard applied to rape only, rather than every criminal prosecution. Crimes of violence (including rape) are particularly horrible and thus attract long sentences. Is that a reason to lower the standard of proof?

I don't think that Her Majesty's constabulary compile figures on percentage of "guilty" people who go free, as it is completely unknowable, as is the true percentage of false allegations. Until we have a machine that can read minds, this will never be a statistic but merely an opinion.