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Original poster

Getting back to what started all this...

43 replies

LDNmummy · 09/08/2011 20:24

Mark Duggan did not shoot at police officer's

To deviate back to the source story behind all this, thought I would share latest IPCC findings.

OP posts:
thisisyesterday · 09/08/2011 20:27

although didn't forensics say they could not say for certain that his gun had not been fired?

I don't know what to think about it.
I think if someone is pointing a weapon at police and threatening them then it would be reasonable of them to shoot first? so the fact that police were not actually fired at may not be entirely relevant?
but we'll probably never know what actually happened will we

ja9 · 09/08/2011 20:30

Have the riots been going on all day, or has it been dying down during the day time and picking up again at night?

GypsyMoth · 09/08/2011 20:31

no evidence is what has been said.......

GypsyMoth · 09/08/2011 20:31

since midday ja9!!

Original poster
LDNmummy · 09/08/2011 20:33

Tests are continuing but they so far have no evidence that the gun had been fired.

They are still checking CCTV footage but it seems shots were fired by an individual officer who's bullet then passed through Mr Duggan's body and lodged in the police radio.

The officer has been taken of duty for the time being.

OP posts:
Original poster
LDNmummy · 09/08/2011 20:40

I think the riots die down during the day but there is general disruption.

TBH it has not affected me because I don't live on a main road. The only problem I have faced is minor travel disruption and my local shopping centre closing at 5pm instead of 9pm. Although my BIL almost got caught in it the other day on his way home, but thankfully was OK.

My cousin who lives in Clapham Junction has not seen anything of it either. It seems concentrated in small pockets as I hear the sirens all night but have not seen anything yet. Saying that I have not been through Tottenham since last week.

I feel very sorry for those who have actually been seriously affected by it. The owners of small business's have lost out the most and for them I am truly saddened.

OP posts:
ja9 · 09/08/2011 20:52

Gosh. can't believe it...

Nancy66 · 09/08/2011 21:17

It's a shame - because it seems as though the police may have opened fire with no justification but that's going to get totally brushed aside because the rioting and looting is a much bigger news story.

thisisyesterday · 09/08/2011 21:27

but we don't know that they had no justification do we?
even if he didn't shoot at them that doesn't mean they weren't justified. if it comes to someone pointing a gun at your head you shoot first surely?

i am of course just projecting here, but we do not know how Duggan was behaving towards police so i don't think anyone can say whether or not the police were justified

CustardCake · 09/08/2011 21:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
LDNmummy · 09/08/2011 21:55

From what I have heard, the gun was not a fully functional weapon, but that is local talk so not at all confirmed.

Of course we should wait to hear more before making any assumptions. I just think far too many people jumped to the assumption that Duggan did shoot first and It is important to highlight that that is not actually the case.

Hopefully more will be said soon.

"Where the gun fails to fire and an officer takes advantage of that and fires quickly in return."

This example here is not at all a situation in which the police should have the right to fire. If the gun does not function then why would it be ok for them to fire on the other person?

OP posts:
Nancy66 · 09/08/2011 21:57

...hence the use of the word 'may'

The story has changed drastically in the past 48 hours. Two days ago everyone was assuming Duggan had fired the shot at the police officer we now know this wasn't the case which, I think, changes things.

CustardCake · 09/08/2011 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BrownB · 09/08/2011 22:09

The man had a gun. We don't know what happened. Why jump to the conclusion that there was no justification Nancy66? Because the police are all thugs who are always in the wrong perhaps...? Angry

That sort of attitude is EXACTLY why rioters can run amok and police were unable to get a hold of it over the weekend. What are the police supposed to do? It's apparently acceptable to criticise and chastise without knowing what happened, or what it's like to do the job. I mean these poor officers are more than aware that it's a strong possibility they're opening themselves open to be charged for hitting the rioters, corralling them, kettling them, touching them...(?!) and the rioters... they know it. So you Nancy66 and all of your ilk, are a large part of this problem in my humble opinion.

I've had enough of hearing about people's 'human rights' for heavens sake. I want to hear more about human responsibilities.

And what about innocent until proven guilty and all that huh?

onagar · 09/08/2011 22:10

IS there CCTV or did they 'lose' it again?

It was obvious from the start that there was something wrong. The original release was so carefully worded to make it sound like they gunned down someone who was shooting at them without actually saying so.

It may well turn out that the guy pulled the gun out before they shot him, but we know from experience don't we that sometimes being foreign is reason enough.

LtEveDallas · 09/08/2011 22:13

I cannot bring myself to feel any sympathy for a person that owned an illegal firearm. This is not America, no-one in the UK has the constitutional right to bear arms. Mr Duggan should not have had a gun, fact. Owning a gun has got him killed. Why did he own a gun? What did he do or intend to do with that gun.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. As horrible as it is he bought it on himself and has no-one to blame but himself.

I will save my sympathy for his children who now grow up fatherless because he thought it was more important to own a handgun - what fucking gangster movie did he think he was starring in.

Nancy66 · 09/08/2011 22:15

BrownB - I think the rioters are lowlife scum and I think the police, by and large, do an excellent job.

But that's a different issue. The police are meant to follow strict guidelines when it comes to opening fire and it's important that those are followed. We don't know if they were in the case of Mark Duggan but we do now know that he did not fire shots at anybody - which is very important and pertinent information

Onagar - the testiment of the minicab driver will be the key evidence here I think.

BrownB · 09/08/2011 22:15

If you remove the room for an officer to make a mistake, then you remove his/he ability to act. The man had a gun that looked like a gun and may well have been modified to propel bullets out of it's barrel towards members of the public. Or not. This will come out in due course.

I challenge you to have someone point a gun at you and for you to spend time considering the niceties of whether it can fire bullets or not.

BrownB · 09/08/2011 22:18

So Nancy66 - tell all. What are those strict guidelines? Let's let the investigation run it's course before we indulge in being judge and jury huh? Honestly. Just ridiculous.

Nancy66 · 09/08/2011 22:21

I'm not a policeman though - I'm not charged with upholding the law of the land and protecting the public while having pledged to follow a certain code.

If somebody pointed a gun at me I would brick it, yes, but I would rather hope that an armed response unit might be better trained for such things.

BrownB · 09/08/2011 22:23

They are human too. As I said. Let's not indulge in being judge and jury without the full facts huh?

CustardCake · 09/08/2011 22:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

goodkate · 09/08/2011 22:26

Nancy66 - I think you are very naive.

What would you do if someone pointed a gun at you, trained or untrained, would you rather let someone kill you or would you kill them first?

BrownB · 09/08/2011 22:30

Bravo CustardCake...

Nancy66 · 09/08/2011 22:38

We don't know that he did point a weapon at anybody.