Les Tricoteuses - Part Deux

[BornSicky]

new thread to discuss phonehacking scandal.

No, I don't think that all of the public would buy papers like that. I don't buy papers like that and nor do millions of others. But I believe in freedom, so if others prefer to read that, then that is the price of freedom.

'claig what you're saying is you like bias as long as it fits with your own world view'

Not at all. I like free ideas. All ideas, even progressive ones. I want as many different viewpoints available as possible. I want intelligent debate and a wide choice for a free people. I want thought and freedom and debate to flourish in a free country. I want to read all views and then make a decision. I don't mind channels like Fox News, and I wouldn't mind a channel like Marxist News. The more views, the more ideas, the richer we all are.

I heard Dacre on the BBC the other day. I agree with him again. He said it was sad that The News of the World had gone. He said that it was a paper read by millions of people on a Sunday. He said that this involved them in some of teh ideas and debates of public life and in politics too. He said that now they may end up reading nothing and would then not be able to participate in the national debate at all. Just because we don't read the News of the World doesn't mean that it wasn't of some value to others.

Claig
I disagree. I want balanced broadcasting. The press are clearly not and look at the damage that has done, and we don't need that shit to extend to broadcasting.

For the ordinary folk who do not have the time and/or the inclination to research a 'balanced' opinion, the BBC does a fine job. It's not perfect certainly but it is widely admired. Murdoch removed his promise for a 'balanced' Sky News' before he withdrew the offer.

And free market in this context is not freedom for those with no power.

But as far as free choice goes, I am exercising my freedom to choose to never again watch Sky News.

But LucaBrasi, that's the whole point, the BBC is not 'balanced'.

'Even one of the BBC's most senior journalists, political pundit Andrew Marr admitted that the corporation was unrepresentative of British society.
He said: "The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly-funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities and gay people.
"It has a liberal bias not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias."

Most people do end up listening to the BBC by default and believe that it is balanced.

Freedom is about choice, and not listening to Sky News is a perfectly valid choice.

'And free market in this context is not freedom for those with no power.'

Most of us have no power whatsoever. We own no organs of the press and can't broadcast our views. We can't affect policy, short of voting every 4 years in a safe-seat system that totally disregards our views. That's the way of the world. Those with money have power. But at least we have teh power to choose what we wish to read or view. We don't have just one state broadcaster or one state newspaper. We have the choice whether to read the Guardian or the Daily Mail.

And even when we do vote, they tear up their promises, like the LibDems did over tuition fees. That's why we are lucky to have such a vibrant free press, so that after we have been stuffed at least we don't have to keep listening to their lies in some state run newspaper.

Some definitions of cultural liberalism from wiki (OK not the most academic of sources, but...)

"Cultural liberalism is a liberal view of society ... Cultural liberals believe that society should not impose any specific code of behaviour, and they see themselves as defending the rights of non-conformists to express their own identity however they see fit, as long as they do not hurt anyone.

...cultural liberals argue that all religion(s) and forms of worship (or lack thereof) should be tolerated. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance".... Cultural liberals are strongly opposed to censorship or any kind of oversight of spoken or written material in peacetime. [note from teej - otherwise how would we be able to speak out against the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan?]. They believe that the structure of one's family and the nature of marriage should be left up to individual decision, and they argue that, as long as one does no harm, no lifestyle is inherently better than any other."

Sorry having a problem seeing the problem, Claig... you should be all for this.

"Freedom is about choice" It is not only about choice, it is about opportunity. And the opportunity for normal people to enjoy yes, a fairly balanced news (certainly more so than others), excellent documentaries, drama, radio and entertainment wold not be availble at the same cost elsewhere.

The cost of the BBC does not even cover my newspaper bill, which I know because I leave it unpaid for months and my long suffering newsagent is very understanding

But some people would make lots of money out of its demise granted.

and we don't just have one state broadcaster - if we did you would not be able to watch ITV, C4, C5, Sky channels etc to your heart's content.

agree luca that's exactly what NI/Sky want - to make £££ out of the demise of the BBC.

you could also argue that the DM is looking at the same objective over the longer term. many print papers deliver video content on their sites. over time this could develop into what is, in effect, DMtv, FTtv, Telegraphtv, Guardiantv etc - competitors for the traditional broadcast news channels.

I am all for freedom and if liberalism means freedom and hearing all opinions then that is fine. But Marr knows what he meant by cultural liberalism and it is not that.

LucaBrasi, I agree with you, the BBC makes lots of good programmes, I wouldn't want to see it go. But reform is different. They always do reviews and sometimes change their strategy. I think there is a debate to be had about what their remit should be. With Freeview there are lots of free-to-air channels that can make cookery programmes just as well. Maybe the BBC should provide high quality stuff that the others don't provide.

I'm all for DMtv and Guardiantv and all the rest. I want lots of competing ideas and for teh people toi choose what they believe. I don't want them spoonfed by a 'balanced' dominant view.

how do you know that, claig? all he said was "culural liberalism", no? Marr is a smart cookie and i would imagine he would use the terminology in a very precise way.

Dacre was arguing that our press is declining. I think we are the country that reads the most newpapers per capita than any other country in the world. The Sunday papers are a great British tradition. It links us all in a community. It is a shame to see it decline. We need to provide an environment of competition and profitability for our free commercial press and media so that they can survive and keep informing and entertaining us. That is why it is important to limit anti-competitive media policies.

For 'cultural liberalism' he might well have used the new buzzword 'progressive'. I am guessing what he means from having watched his programmes and read his interviews.

anti-competitive practices in the media industry have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the closure of NotW - to say otherwise is disingenuous to say the least.

NotW was closed for two main reasons:

1. NI wanted to close the brand anyway so they could move to a 7-day Sun operation, which is cheaper to run
2. before they could enact that strategy, the brand itself became tainted and advertisers pulled out, forcing their hand.

Never going to agree on the free market always means freedom claig. This is the same argment that was put to hold up the health care reforms in the US. Certainly, ithe neo-cons here would argue that we should not be paying for the NHS here out of NI contribtions but paying diectly ourselves for that 'free choice'. Which surely does not need an explanation as to why that it is no free choice at all.

Again, like the BBC, the NHS is something that the UK does really well, which is the envy of the world. I'm certainly not going to support free loaders making their swift buck and leaving everyone to payi more for pish and lies.

Sorry to just sort of bumble in to an ongoing conversation but I just wanted to say I liked ThisIsANiceCage's phrase "disaster-opportunism". I hope she won't mind if I borrow it.

Can't really see the loss of the NoW will leave its readers bereft of political comment/insight. That is a spectacular assumption.
Agree mainly with Luca and Teej, but also sympathise with what claig is saying- the irony is that it is excellent investigative journalism by the guardian that started all this.
Generally feel smug that my distrust and boycott of the Murdoch press / Sky over the last 20 years has been vindicated.

Marr is careful, precise and thoughtful in his choice of language - which you would know from watching him/reading his comments. again I would venture he used "cultural liberalism" in a precise way. it is only those with an anti-BBC/ right wing agenda who would assume to the contrary.

animula sorry if this looks like a closed shop - certainly not the case

teejwood, I agree about the possible new Sunday Sun plans. When I say anti-competitive, I don't mean teh NOTW, I am talking about public subsidies to the state broadcaster, the BBC. Funny how they have privatised nealt everything except the BBC.

LucaBrasi, you're right about the free market. It has to be regulated to stop crooks, cheats and swindlers.

SO enjoying this debate - keep it up!

teejwood, I agree that Marr used 'cultural liberalism in a precise way. I think he used it in precisely teh way that I understand it, but we have a different understanding of what he meant, just as we probably have a different understanding over politics.