Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

drunken consent

170 replies

stitch · 24/11/2005 11:24

this is the sort of thing that really annoys me.
some silly woman gets drunk, has sex with bloke, then ruins his life by saying he raped her. i totally agree with the judge. drunken consent is still consent.
if you totally didnt want sex, then you shouldnt have got yourself so drunk that you cant remember whether you consented or not. rape is obvious as it happens. not after the fact. ask the real victims of rape.
i just feel that this sort of attitude belittles how horrific a crime it really is.
oops, should have done the link first.
here

OP posts:
inameeting · 26/11/2005 09:51

It's disgusting how a man in a position entrusted with the care of this girl had sex with her while she was so drunk and therefore vulnerable. Men should have more responsibility - they are human beings, not animals, and should know they shouldn't take advantage of women when they are so drunk. If they do, then they have to deal with the consequences of his own judgement. Cases like these are too frequent for them not to know what the consequences might be. Women are expected to act like ladies (that's why they get so much bad press when they don't) so men should be expected to act like gentlemen.

I know some women are complete slappers, but some men are too (ie the sort that will have sex with an unconscious/hideously drunk girl) - they just don't get bad-mouthed like women do, so if they get into trouble occasionally for being so then tough.

mymama · 26/11/2005 23:50

Why would he rape her in the middle of a corridor where anyone could walk by??? As a security guard that would be just plain dumb. How do we know that on the walk back she wasn't flirting and groping all over him and he thought it was all stations go??? That makes him ignorant, selfish and stupid but not a rapist.

mymama · 27/11/2005 00:04

Statistics today are saying young girls binge drink far more than young guys and are writing themselves off most weekends. I think this is a very hard case as he may well have raped her (and should be punished) but I also think there is a reasonable chance a drunk university student in party mood (very obviously) may have draped herself all over him and given him the come on during the walk home and was not aware enough to say no when she didn't want to have sex. Yes he should have stopped but he is a young bloke who has far more hormones than he knows what to do with. Lets hope he learns his lesson from this and refuses to be in this situation again.

edam · 27/11/2005 12:16

Interesting article in the Indie on Sunday about how women blame other women for breaking the rules of self-preservation (borne out by this thread, I think). And about how we still believe that men aren't responsible for their behaviour: here

monkeytrousers · 27/11/2005 19:09

Great article Edam. Really covers all the bases. It's right to flag up the positive side of the survey but so right in drawing attention to the institutional sexism inherent in our judiciary.

I still really don't understand those who say it's still in some way a woman?s fault to be raped. I mean raped FGS! Don't people know what the word means??

There was an interesting article in the guardian yesterday, ostensibly about our responsibilities to children, but it made a quite unnerving reference to a documentary which illustrated the differing pathologies of people who reach out with empathy to others and try to help and those who close down their feelings and join in the persecution. I suppose it's hard for any of us to look at ourselves and be honest about what we see but, and I don?t care that I?ll be burned for this, that?s what I?d say to all of you who think this way. I bet everyone on this thread who can find no sympathy for the woman in question here all think of themselves as good, nice and moral individuals, and it?s very likely you are in a lot of ways..except this. We all have something to learn about ourselves, and we can all be better people if we make the effort. I don?t believe that effort ever stops and I?m not perfect by a very long way before anyone accuses me of thinking I am. I just hope to God you never find yourself in a situation where you need help and understanding and no one around you is prepared to give it. That's all I've got to say.

the article's here if you wnat to have a look

edam · 27/11/2005 19:16

Thanks the link MT, have lost yesterday's paper and hadn't finished reading it, aarrggh.

And very good point about dividing people into those who step in and those who ignore. I once came across a homeless man who had been stabbed. He was dripping blood (luckily not an artery). Yet thousands of people walked past us. Once I'd stopped, some people paused, stared, and moved off with a nasty look on their faces. This was in the epicentre of London (Shaftesbury Ave, near Leicester Square). I went into a restaurant to get napkins to hold against the wound (which luckily didn't appear to be immediately life-threatening) and they weren't even happy about letting me call an ambulance!

monkeytrousers · 27/11/2005 19:25

I've been in a few situations like that. One new years a woman was being beaten up at a bus stop by her partner and I was the only one who went and got her away from him. Everyone around me was telling me not to get involved in 'a domestic'.

My mother is the total opposite. She told me about listening to her next door neighbour being beaten up by her DH and I asked her why she hadn't rang the police. "No one did it for me" was her reply. (She obviously has a very selective memory as the police were always around our house.

It really is a case of 'there but for the grace of god go I'.

nooka · 27/11/2005 20:37

Edam, monkeytrousers thanks for the articles. Both thought provoking - although depresing! I would like to feel that someone would look out for my children the way that I remember being looked out for (both in being helped, and in being told off!)

mymama · 28/11/2005 03:03

mt - I was actually sexually abused from ages 7 to 14 by my stepbrother so I have a bit of an insight into unwelcome sexual advances!! As I said the bloke most likely did the wrong thing and should be punished but I thought the judicial system was about innocent until proven guilty without reasonable doubt. She said she didn't think she would have agreed to have sex with him!!!! The other side of the coin is an innocent man going to jail for a stupid, drunken romp that may not have been rape. He may not be the most reliable witness but she wasn't either.

stitch · 28/11/2005 08:42

mymama, i am sorry for the horrible experiences you had, and hope you are healing from them.

to those of you who are being so fundamentalist as to lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the bloke, why? was the woman an underage, four year old? why can she not take some responsibilty for her actions? i have said again and again that what he did was a bad bad thing. i just dont think it was rape. this is very very different from condoning his actions..

OP posts:
northerner · 28/11/2005 08:46

Apparantly only one in ten rape cases are ever reported. Cases like this do not help. Infuriates me that the British jutice system does not see this as rape. Why should this man get off scott free?

Did he behave properly?
Is he safe to be around women?
Is he a good scurity guard?

I think not to all of the above.

monkeytrousers · 28/11/2005 11:17

Mymama, I have a feeling that many people contributing or lurking on this thread will unfortunately have their own insight on the subject, whether they declare it or not. Your point about the presumption if innocence is crucial to the debate, because shockingly it doesn't seem to be extended to the victim. The case in question on this thread would seem to have been dismissed on this exact premise.

Stitch, I'm not a fundamentalist and I support the call for women to be more responsible, but the onus should surely be on men too. The dismissal of this case is very dangerous in the precedent that it sets, if it is upheld. That's all I'm arguing here. None of us are in a position to know the 'facts' about this case but yet many are prepared to condemn her as stupid and irresponsible and therefore culpable, and perversely more culpable than the man involved. What kind of logic is that?

I?ve been very drunk in my youth, but I know that I would never consent to sex in a corridor with a stranger. This woman says the same thing. You would probably say the same thing. What the courts, and people on this thread are saying is that she and I don?t know our own minds. That someone else, more strangers can make that judgement call for her. And simply on the basis that she was pissed. It?s just utterly ridiculous and steeped in prejudice and misogyny.

And on a wider note, what of people with low IQ?s, what of people with learning difficulties? If ?stupidity? is an excuse for rape, then I fear for them I do.

mymama · 28/11/2005 12:20

So monkeytrousers is there ever a case where the bloke is innocent??? You seem to be awfully one sided. I have stated that he may well have raped her but reasonable doubt exists. She said that if she wanted sex she would have taken him to her bedroom. If she was only just aware 'something was going on' then I doubt she would have even been capable of opening the door to let him in. She didn't even know that she had sex until he told her. How can you be so sure she is the one telling the truth??? If this man did rape her then it is a terrible injustice that he has not been punished. However, it would also be a terrible injustice if an innocent man has years of his life taken away from him by being punished for a crime he did not commit.

monkeytrousers · 28/11/2005 15:32

Erm, of course there are cases where the man may be innocent. I've never said anything to challenge that. And I'm not sure she's 'telling the truth' but why on earth wouldn't she be? Where's the presumption of innocence there? That's all I'm getting at.

blueshoes · 28/11/2005 17:29

I am sad to read Edam's Indie article about our sisters being the first the stick the knives and MT's Guardian article about how we no longer look out for each other. Certainly attitudes in the judiciary, community need changing.

At the risk of being hounded off this thread, I think the law is right on the balance of proof. Rape is a charge which, if sticks, seeks to affect the civil liberties of - not the victim (who has allegedly already been sinned against) - but the alleged rapist. Therefore, the onus is on the prosecution to prove that the man intended to have sex with the victim against her will. The man is presumed innocent unless proven guilty otherwise the balance would tilt too much in favour of the victim and leave it wide open for any woman to make allegations that could put a man away for a long time.

MT, like you, I cannot believe that any self-respecting woman would bring such a charge if it were not true. In rape it tends to be one person's word against another because of the lack of witnesses. But at the very least, the law expects the woman to be able to say confidently that she did not consent, not that she cannot remember and therefore the inference must be that she must have been raped because in the cold light of day she would not have done such a thing. Otherwise, it is one man's word (he is swearing black and blue that she consented, yes, drunkenly) against ... well, nothing concrete from the woman.

I don't want our ds' to live under a legal regime that condemns him to jail on a woman's whim. But yes, there are men who will take advantage of the protection that the law affords to innocent men to get away with unprovable rape.

That is why women have to take precautions - but that is not to say that the predatory men are not wrong in doing what they did.

And all women who are raped are innocent. It is so clear that the crime is perpetrated by the man and there can be no justification for it. I will stop now because I am rambling

monkeytrousers · 28/11/2005 18:45

Blueshoes, I'm inclined to agree with you on the burden of proof, what needs to be addressed is the misogyny that quite plainly corrupts the system. It's quite clear that such latent prejudice has a huge part to play in this debate. But let me be clear, I'm not saying that no ?self respecting? women could bring such a charge if it weren't true. I'm sure that only a minute percentage are malicious (which is the implicit charge in the phraseology of ?crying rape?) as I'm sure the majority are unsure, confused, ashamed and humiliated and just don?t know what the hell to do.

As we've established, the circumstances wherein rape can take place are various and motives complicated. What I'm asking, as I've asked before, is what does a woman who suspects she'd been assaulted do? Does she go to the police, with evidence intact (a crucial element unarguably) and pursue a charge if the CPS advises her to - only for it to be dropped and for her to be accused of 'crying rape'? Even if she?s drunk, even if she?s stupid ? what state does a woman have to be to be given the presumption of innocence as her alleged attacker will be given, and quite rightly so, by law?

I'm not getting at anyone here. I don't hate men. I don't hate women either, even daft stupid ones (myself included). I'm just trying to work out the logic of this in my head and it doesn?t add up, not by a long way. The whole system is corrupted with misogyny and that means we all have to look to ourselves in order to turn it around. The law can only go so far, we have to do the rest. I'm sorry to be so pedantic but if there's one fight worth it I'd say this is it. Forget charity by direct debit, get up close. This is only happening because we allow it to.

Right I'm off to get my cape fitted..

monkeytrousers · 29/11/2005 15:01

Okay, have bored everyone rigid? (I can't help but see all kinds of double entendres in my posts! Such masculine language!)

StarofBethleCam · 02/12/2005 10:19

I think the problem here is that it probably only matters in law what the man believed in his own mind. If he believed she ahd consented then it wouldn't be rape. What format does consent take? Is it merely the absence of saying no?

In consensual sex how many women actually say the word yes?

The reason this case was lost for the woman was because she didn't seem to know whether she had consented or not. There was no other possible outcome in these circumstances. It matters not whether she would have usually not consented in those circs.

Janos · 02/12/2005 12:11

I'm with you monkeytrousers. I hate the way women are made, or assumed to be responsible for men's sexual behaviour. Not sure about the cape though...

And honestly, what kind of man wants to or enjoys having sex with a woman who is incapable of giving consent? What's that all about? I

Isn't it part of the problem that many (not all)men think they have a 'right' to sex? Frankly it's not a 'right' for anyone, man or woman.

StarofBethleCam · 02/12/2005 13:53

Agree Janos, its a huge area of inequality.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page