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OP posts:
johnhemming · 26/08/2011 20:56

why did you not appeal to Supreme Court?
It was obiter dicta. The case itself was taken to the House of Lords and is now in ECtHR. I took the issue to the OJC who decided they did not have jurisdiction and that was agreed by the ombudsman.

I could have taken that to judicial review and then to ECtHR on Article 14, but decided not to.

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Spero · 26/08/2011 21:03

A failure to find a relevant and pertinent fact is NOT 'obiter dicta'. It is an appeal point.

So presumably on whatever basis it went to the Supreme Court, they chucked it out hence it has gone to Europe? No doubt in the interests of accountability you will post their judgment, even if they also chuck it out.

My goodness, an awful lot of people must be wanting to secure their place at these luxurious venues eh?

Either corruption and perversion pervades every level of the judiciary in this country, or you bring very poorly conceived cases, make fantastical alegations you cant prove and judges quite rightly reject what you say.

johnhemming · 26/08/2011 21:08

the point about RP was that she had capacity all along and that was obvious for anyone talking to her.

She presented her own case. The ease at which her capacity was removed was the basis of appeal.

The arguments about whether or not a document was forged were not really relevant.

OP posts:
Spero · 26/08/2011 21:43

So why did you bring up the documents if they weren't relevant?

So to recap: you assessed RP as having litigation capacity, despite having no qualifications in psychiatry or psychology. But that is OK, because it was 'obvious' to anyone who spoke to her.

despite it being so 'obvious' Wall LJ refused to accept it and went so far to ignore a crucial document which again had 'obviously' been forged, for reasons completely unknown, but you will argue it was to ensure that RPs baby was 'snatched' ( to be sold on to a paedophile sex ring??).

Despite this catalogue of failing on the part of the court and the Guardian to recognise what was 'obvious' a subsequent appeal to the Supreme Court failed and you have appealed to the European Court.

As I say, I await their judgment with considerable interest and trust you will come back andpost it here even in the unlikely event it upholds the findings of the English court.

johnhemming · 27/08/2011 04:12

Your habits are as usual to misrepresent my arguments and then deal with the misrepresentation. Try dealing with the true arguments instead.

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mathanxiety · 27/08/2011 05:06

I am getting a sense of why the idea of layers and layers of bodies to which to appeal (as outlined in your proposal for a system of accountability) seems to have an attraction for you.

Your true arguments are synopsised thus: 'All of these pointed to the document being forged. All of this was evidence of the document being forged. This evidence was ignored by the court.'

Note the massive leap from 'All of this pointed to the document being forged' to 'All of this was evidence of the document being forged.' In other words, 'I believe what I say must be true and therefore it is true. And everyone else is out of step except me'.

Note also no convincing suggestion as to why (apart from the Luxurious venues).

johnhemming · 27/08/2011 10:34

Lets use wikipedia:
"Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. "

To claim that there is "no evidence" means that there is nothing put forward to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. It is a different argument to take the view that the evidence does not substantiate the assertion.

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Pamplemoussse · 27/08/2011 10:39

DM article here about VH and why she is abroad

ReindeerBollocks · 27/08/2011 13:32

Spero you're the kind of lawyer I want to be when I qualify. Having worked in (many) Legal Aid practices I am laughing at JH account of what really happens in offices and courts alike.

Peado ring for lawyers - yeah of course there is Hmm. Most people working in Legal Aid are doing so to help people - there is no money to be made, the work loads are heavy and the clients are varied. In cases like this funding is always available, and if you really had any evidence you should have put in an application for JR. It's bullshit that you claim to have evidence but then changed your mind to JR. Why? Surely if this woman was innocent and genuine then it was in her, and your best interest to take it to the ECHR under art 14. I know many lawyers who JR at the slightest discrepancy - as it is in the best interests of their client.

Except, maybe, there isnt the evidence that VH claims exists. Judges do not make these rulings lightly, and the fact that the case has gone this far highlights some serious issues in the publics perception of women and families.

I don't agree that Family Courts should wide open. I think it would likely lead to more serious abuse of powers, and it would fail to protect children who need this anonymity in the first place. There does need to be reforms, but this is not the way to go about it.

Spero · 27/08/2011 15:22

Thank you RB. But be careful what you wish for!

JH - please do explain to me how my précis above misrepresented your argument. I genuinely don't understand.

But this appears to be your modus operandi does it not? If faced with an issue or question you do not like or with which you cannot grapple, you either ignore the question, accuse the questioner of bias or, god help us, refer to some kind of spreadsheet.

Unlike you JH I follow the holy dictum of 'look at the facts, only the facts. Not what you would wish them to be, not what suits your purpose or your prejudices'

The real evil you do is bury genuine concerns about the why the system sometimes fails vulnerable children and families and stifle real productive debate, under a mountain of stinking putrid offal and clear out and out lies which you must KNOW to be lies, unless you are as mad as your many followers.

I will await the findings of the European Court. If they find that Wall LJ is corrupt I will accept that finding with great shame and sorrow. But will you accept a finding that goes against you??

ducks as huge herd of pigs goes whizzing overhead and Judas Iscariot hands out ice skates in Hell

johnhemming · 27/08/2011 16:07

I gave you the facts (things like no received stamp) those were facts. You have ignored them.

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ReindeerBollocks · 27/08/2011 17:08

JH - the judge has (albeit briefly) summed up the facts of the case. VH made allegations of sexual abuse against her daughter caused by the child's father. The court cleared this man of all charges, stating unequivocally that there was no case to answer.

Cases of abuse are deemed extremely seriously, and, I fear, that this little girl will have been put through very detailed medical examinations for proof of any harm. It would appear from the little knowledge of the legal case that has been described, that the little girl had not been harmed.

I am aware that you have been in close connection with VH, but are you really suggesting that medical reports of such a sensitive nature would be tampered with? Plus, if it really is your suggestion that this evidence is tainted then surely normal practice is to conduct yet another test by a consultant of VH's choosing.

Whilst I hate to form opinions on such cases with little detail, you're input has been highly prejudicial to the father and not really considered both sides of the case.

I feel that you, like Elizabeth Watson, have actually fuelled the fire, and gave VH more weight to her cause, which in light of the ruling, is not a positive thing.

Is it not true that Ms Watson has apologised for her role within the campaign to smear the father in this case? Don't you feel that you too owe this man an apology?

MrsReasonable · 27/08/2011 18:11

A very thorough account of the whole thing.

"I?ve said, on a number of previous occasions, that ? in my opinion ? Hemming is clearly unfit to hold public office and it is to be hoped that, on this occasion, his flagrant and repeated abuses of position and privilege will be thoroughly investigated and met with an appropriately severe sanction."

mathanxiety · 27/08/2011 18:13

Ah now come on JH -- Wikipedia ?

Spero · 27/08/2011 21:20

I think there is some confusion in that I am asking JH to explain his reasoning in the RP case (not the VH case). The RP case involved a women who was found by an expert not to have sufficient intelligence and understanding to instruct her own solicitors in her family law case. Hence the Official Solicitor was instructed to represent her.

She claimed in court, supported by Mr Hemming, that her solicitor HAD NEVER TOLD HER she was being represented by the OS and Mr Hemming alleged in court that her solicitor had forged documents on her file which she presented to the Judge as if they were real.

Wall LJ rejected Mr Hemming's assertions as scandalous and expressed deep concern that an MP would behave in this way.

Let me break it down for you JH in the simplest way I can. Please tell me which stage of my reasoning is erroneous.

  1. You assert RP had litigation capacity because it was 'obvious' just by speaking to her.
  2. You do not have any qualifications in pyschiatry or pschology
  3. RP was never told at any stage by her legal team that she was being represented by the OS
  4. Your suspicions were increased by a document in the solicitor's file which was 'obviously' forged
  5. Wall LJ rejected your submissions
  6. Your appeal to the Supreme Court failed and this case is now before the European Court
7 You could not provide Wall LJ with any reason WHY the solicitor would seek to lie to her client 8 You could not explain all the other letters and attendance notes in the solicitor's file which showed how RP had the OS and his role explained to her repeatedly and at length.

Please identify where above I have mispresented your position in this case and/or what happened.

And please tell me - what were the MOTIVES operating here to deny RP a fair trial? Who wanted to snatch her baby and why?

Spero · 27/08/2011 21:29

Mrs Reasonable - thanks for that link, it is excellent.

So much good stuff.

JH. Were you one of those who 'badly advised' poor Ms Watson? The timeline in that blog suggests you most definitely were. You have thus have been part of a gang who seriously emotionally abused a little girl for years.

Spero · 27/08/2011 22:40

Looks like his supporters are turning on each other.

the centre cannot hold!

www.socialservicehell.org/index.php/component/content/article/33-breakingnews/231-why-elizabeth-watson-is-a-care-in-the-community-case

johnhemming · 27/08/2011 23:03

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8727312/Judge-Wall-the-secrecy-rules-and-another-stinging-attack.html

And please tell me - what were the MOTIVES operating here to deny RP a fair trial? Who wanted to snatch her baby and why?
Nottingham partly because she had upset them and partly to satisfy their adoption target.

  1. You assert RP had litigation capacity because it was 'obvious' just by speaking to her. The masterman-lister test really does not require a qualification at a basic level. Solicitors operate an informal test before asking for specialist help.
  1. You do not have any qualifications in pyschiatry or pschology No, but I can spell them.
  1. RP was never told at any stage by her legal team that she was being represented by the OS She was not aware of this.
  1. Your suspicions were increased by a document in the solicitor's file which was 'obviously' forged No. I was surprised about this, but it did not affect the underlying issue which was that her capacity had been wrongly removed. I have done quite a bit of forensic fraud work including on the paperwork for the Aston election petition for the 2004 elections.
  1. Wall LJ rejected your submissions True
  1. Your appeal to the Supreme Court failed and this case is now before the European Court True, but it was the House of Lords at the time.

7 You could not provide Wall LJ with any reason WHY the solicitor would seek to lie to her client
I am not sure I was asked for this. In any event I made it clear that whoever did this did not have access to the original letterhead. I did not say that the solicitor had lied to her client.

8 You could not explain all the other letters and attendance notes in the >solicitor's file which showed how RP had the OS and his role explained to her >repeatedly and at length.
There were other documents of dubious provenance, but they did not affect the underlying egregious abuse of human rights.

Let me stress that I did not allege that the solicitor had forged the letters.

OP posts:
johnhemming · 27/08/2011 23:07

On the issue of Elizabeth Watson. My advice to her was that her behaviour would likely result in her being jailed, that she should follow the injunction and be at least a bit apologetic. I also banned her from emailing me and advised Vicky Haigh to have nothing to do with her.

There are a lot of people who are unhappy with the malpractice in the family division. I try to ensure that those I work with behave in a reasonable and responsible manner. There are those who do not fall into that category (Elizabeth Watson is a good example).

OP posts:
Spero · 27/08/2011 23:16

Crikey! digs at my crap spelling! I can see I am in the ring with a real Titan here.

Really JH is that the best you can do (no really, don't answer that)

You haven't actually told me where I have mispresented or misunderstood your position. still waiting with baited breath (or should that be bated? No doubt you will soon correct me)

And if the solicitor didn't forge the letter, who the hell did? Who inserted that forged letter in her file? Why didn't she see it and object? Why, when you pointed it out didn't she say 'gosh! that letter is an obvious forgery! and while we are at it, of course I didn't tell RP that she was represented by the OS! My motivations are to meet government adoption targets'.

And of course a LA 'getting upset' is obviously the motivation behind care proceedings. Corporate bodies have such a tendency to get peevish.

Don't really know why I am bothering with this because of course you can't/won't listen. But like a dog returns to its vomit, I just find myself coming back.

Perhaps I will just go and hit myself in the face with a shovel until I wake up. That would be just about as intellecutally stimulating as this debate.

hester · 27/08/2011 23:33

Blimey, JH's supporters and fellow travellers are a rum bunch, aren't they?

Give it up now, JH, part of you must really want to.

mathanxiety · 28/08/2011 00:17

There are adoption targets and there is vindictive snatching on the part of entities which are inanimate?

I can spell psychiatry and psychology too; I was always an ace speller and I could probably have managed to spell both words at about age 8. So?

Spero said 'You could not explain all the other letters and attendance notes in the solicitor's file which showed how RP had the OS and his role explained to her repeatedly and at length.'
JH, Did it ever occur to you that you were assuming in RP that she might be confused because a load of baddies were running rings around her, where the far more reasonable, rational explanation for it all was that, in fact, her capacity to understand such matters was diminished? Sometimes the obvious and simple explanation is likely to be the truth.

-You assert RP had litigation capacity because it was 'obvious' just by speaking to her.
The masterman-lister test really does not require a qualification at a basic level. Solicitors operate an informal test before asking for specialist help.
-->So their guess was as good as yours really, as to her competence? And since you held the minority opinion on this matter you probably should have asked yourself if there was any possibility you could have been, well, wrong.

UnityMot · 28/08/2011 02:02

Not only can I spell psychiatry and psychology but. unlike John, I have a degree in psychology which means that I can not only read and understand the judgement in RP vs Nottingham City Council but - also unlike John - I can make of the psychiatric evidence introduced during the proceedings.

The key passage is paragraph 109, which reads as follows:

"109. Given the criticisms which are made of HJ, I propose to set out the whole of her first report in full. It reads as follows: -

In order to complete the assessment I saw RP at her solicitor's office for an appointment lasting for two hours. She was forthcoming and cooperative through the appointment.

  1. Please assess whether RP has a learning disorder or learning difficulty and the extent of the same.

(RP) told me that she attended a mainstream school, but often truanted from school because of being bullied. She said that she had left school without taking any exams and has no qualifications. She does not think of herself as someone with learning difficulties.

In order to assess her intellectual ability, I completed a Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale ? Third Edition (WAIS-3) with her. This is a standardised measure which indicates overall level of functioning as well as any specific strengths and deficits the individual may have. RP's scores on the WAIS-3 showed that she has a significant learning disability. This is a global disability, affecting all aspects of her functioning. I examined her scores for evidence that her functioning might have been limited by poor school attendance. However, the distribution of scores across the subtests suggests that this would not account for her learning disability.

(RP's) verbal abilities, as measured by the WAIS-3 were at the 2nd percentile (2% of the population would be expected to score at this level or below). This includes the ability to understand and recall information presented verbally, and think conceptually to resolve problems. Her performance abilities were at the 1st percentile (1% of the population would be expected to score at this level or below). This includes the ability to solve practical problems using information presented visually or in concrete form.

This profile indicates that (RP) does not have the overall understanding and ability which her initial verbal presentation might lead one to expect. Information will need to be presented to her in simple terms, using concrete rather than abstract language wherever possible. She has an ability to repeat verbal material which is in advance of her ability to comprehend or make use of this information. This can give a misleading impression, especially as she is unlikely to say when she has not understood something.

Her poor organisational and sequencing abilities to make it hard for her to plan and execute practical tasks. Complex tasks will need to be broken down and demonstrated with repetition in a consistent way. Pictures and diagrams will not be of any particular assistance to her, as she will not find it easy to transfer learning from these into practical situations.

Because of the level of her difficulties RP will find it hard to generate new solutions to problems independently. This means that while she may learn appropriate skills when she is shown, she will find it hard to adapt these when there are changes in her situation.

  1. In your opinion is RP able to understand these Court Proceedings and provide instructions to her solicitors?

I found that (RP) has a limited understanding of the Proceedings, and of her solicitor's role within these. She could not explain to me the stage the proceedings were at, and spoke in a confused way about what has happened so far, and what may happen next. Most importantly, she did not seem able to understand that solicitors are there to represent their clients, and perceived them as acting independently of their clients

(RP) has the ability to tell her solicitor what she wants in broad terms (for example that she would like KP to be discharged to her care), but beyond this she will struggle to understand the complexities of the choices she may have to make.

  1. In your opinion is RP competent to make important decisions within these proceedings herself, or should the Official Solicitor be involved?

Because of the difficulties (RP) has in understanding, processing and recalling information, I believe that she will find it very difficult to understand the advice given by her solicitor. She will not be able to make informed decisions on the basis of this advice, particularly when this involves anticipating possible outcomes. It would be appropriate for the Official Solicitor to become involved."

As most Mumsnetters will be unfamiliar with WAIS-3, I'll translate RP's score into an equivalent IQ score which should, hopefully, help to clarify the extent of her cognitive limitations. Based on this assessment, RP's IQ would fall somewhere between 55 and 70 - 100 is the average score and a score below 70 is indicative of a severe learning disability.

Based on that assessment, RP is capable of learning by rote but lacks the ability to apply what she may have learned in one situation to another similar, but different, situation. To use a culinary analogy, if you taught her a recipe for spaghetti bolognese by walking her through it step by step, she'd be able to make a spag bol, but if you then asked to apply what she'd learned about making spag bol to knocking up a simple beef lasagne she'd be completely flummoxed by the request.

Importantly, in terms of John's claim that its obvious that RP had litigation capacity just from speaking to her, the psychiatric assessment indicates that her ability to repeat verbal information exceeds her ability to understand that information or make use of it, so its not obvious at all. Appearances, in this case, are deceptive and it is only when her cognitive abilities are properly assessed by a competent psychiatric practitioner - and not an incompetent MP - that the full extent of her cognitive limitations becomes apparent.

UnityMot · 28/08/2011 02:04

Oops, damn the lack of a edit button - that first sentent should state that "I can make sense of the psychiatric evidence..."

johnhemming · 28/08/2011 09:04

On RP there were later assessments all of which pointed to or concluded that she had litigation capacity.

There are adoption targets and there is vindictive snatching on the part of >entities which are inanimate?
There were adoption targets for all English LAs at that time. The only one I have seen recently is for LB Merton.

OP posts: