Opposition debate on ringfencing Sure Start

[NicName]

I'm watching Opposition proposal debate that Sure Start should be ringfenced again from the Con Dem cuts:
news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_commons/newsid_8167000/8167404.stm
It's truly shocking that councils are having to close such services.
Sure Start allows mums to work, affords children a good start in life & delivers great value for money in reducing benefits. All parties have conceded that. Clegg promised to protect Surestart from any cuts.
Think Cameron should really be apologising to women for the swingeing cuts to Sure Start & Foundation Years spending that are going to affect millions of mums and kids & their opportunities for years to come, rather than patronising any that point out uncomfortable truths to him.

i am sure their are some which serve the area well but feel as always these type of services do not reach those who need it ,as if you are struggling and can see that and are asking for help you actally are ok its the mums who arent coping dont see it and wont go for help who really need the centre

were i live you cannot move for boden and joules in our la we have a large population were english is not their first laguage and also a lot of single parents our sure sart is full of neither and i cannot help think they would benafit more than i

like i siad i am sure in some areas they are getting to people who need it but that dosent mean that is happening everywere and those ones who are full of evean drinking bmw driving mums need to close or start supporting mums who for them sure start is the only help they can get

you do need a mix but by virture of being middle class if things go wrong you can get help from many other avenues that are not open to poorer mums

The amount of kids that go,siblings(and parents) it's a lot of bodies that you couldn't fit in medical centres etc.The sessions are very noisy,messy etc.We had no building at all before our 2 local ones were built.

It's the staff that would need funding.The staff are what make them so good and different to a toddler group.Overworked mums run toddler groups(I've done it twice) and they're just not in the same class,mums are also busy looking after their own dc,they're not qualified to help,support,educate needy mums.

What are these avenues Maypole because when I needed help I sure as hell didn't have it knocking on my door?

Also it bugs me a little this choosing mums to exclude.How do you do it,by income, education??? Surely seeing that all mums can struggle helps mums,you chat,you advise on issues you're not struggling in etc. Keeping mums cloistered in their little class groups(however you do that) doesn't help anybody.

After I got in the swing of things I was approached by my Surestart to be on the parents forum,interview staff,work there etc.I obviously have skills that are valuable and it's also mums like me that will fight to keep said centres open.It's a little galling that when I really needed it people think mums like me however should just struggle alone.

MilaMae: the need and the numbers would depend on the area, the numbers, the buildings available, and other variables. When my DCs were small there were excellent, professionally staffed One O'Clock clubs. And there were numerous other services (I'm talking 1990s), usually free or token (and optional) 50p for tea/coffee.

Is a central ring-fenced edict on how to spend really going to provide better services than those decided upon by the local Under-8 children's services teams?

And if you think your Council is failing in the services it provides, is it really any improvement to leave them in place and add central govt directive? Or should the local community hold their council rigourously to account, boot them out when necessary - and individuals who are truly passionate about the children's services (and those for the disabled, and other vulnerable) to consider standing for election themselves?

thats the whole point a middle class mum is much more likey to book a appointment with her hv or gp she can afford a conciller and more than likey is married not alsways but has the support of her oh and extened family and usually only has a small number of children.

were as a disavanted mum may be a sinle parent is less likey to go to hv or gp aor sure start centre when things start going worng also may not have that strong family network to help hold things together

i strongley feel that sure start centres should be used for parents whose children are at risk

i am not trying to start a argument but i work with children in care and i can assure you the type parents i see would go no were near a sure start centre but in my view are the ones who need it the most

their are parents out their who belive its correct to feed a 6 month old coke from a bottle or that you only change a nappy once a day if that now sur;ley those parents whould benafit from the support more than you who are clearly a good parent even though have stuggled a little bit the life these children would have if their mums dont get the support compared to yours now if your honest i am sure their very child hoods would not be at risk but other childrens would be

sorry my spelling is shocking

Ok ..... fine so Mums that need educating in that sense need to see it in practise as well as be told, making it essential to keep Surestart accessible to everyone. Knowing some had paid and I had not would take me back to school dinner vouchers and feel uncomfortable and different. Make it free for everyone.

Sometimes I envisage a world where Mumsnet are in charge of deciding who the deserving really are. Then we would truly live in a equal society where everyone would have fuck all because "it would be wasted on them" if they had it

Maypole I'm not married and certainly couldn't ever afford a councellor(sp).My dp works full time as does my mother.To be honest I think middle class mums have far less support than families out of work.

What makes a person middle class? Having a mortgage or a job? Neither of these means you're automatically better off financially,some people on benefits will maybe have far more in their pocket than I do. All mums need support especially when struggling and struggling covers all classes.

So a GP visit is the sum total of "other avenues",thank goodness I had Surestart

Counsellors and GPs don't help with your children and give you ideas for how to entertain them. Church halls (etc) are biased towards one religion and exclude others (in our surestart parents from at least 4 religions and none mix happily). Many areas do not have alternative facilities.

Our local surestart has done more for social cohesion (as people of different classes and ethnic groups mix) than anything else available. This is money well spent and will continue way past our children's leaving ages as the parents now know each other (as do the kids). In addition, parents of different classes can (although they might not, I admit) help each other out in different ways.

I totally agree Chaotica. Surely coke feeding mums would be better off spending time with mothers who aren't that way inclined than always with those who do.

I learnt a lot from mums a lot younger than me and who perhaps are raising their kids in a different environment.I'm pretty sure they must have learnt masses from me too.

Social cohesion is soooo important and I think benefits all mums and more importantly all children.

"coke" in reference to Maypole's post.

I know that the people the SureStart really need to engage with are the ones who won't just turn up/drop in to the Children's Centre.

I've spent the last 2 days driving round peoples houses and knocking on doors of the ones I know would really benefit from coming. So hopefully this approach will have some success.

The centres need to be sited where people live. If you don't have a car you won't be able to get there easily. Ours are right in the area it's aimed at so is very well attended.

Contact the local school and send letters out. School holiday activities lure people in if well run and good quality as mums with little money are often quite desperate then.

"Surely coke feeding mums would be better off spending time with mothers who aren't that way inclined than always with those who do"

Not always - a lot of the mums I work with would think that more "middle class" mums were stuck up bints and refuse to come to groups if it was full of middle class types. I'm not saying thats always the case but it definetly can be. They feel judged and looked down on. I went to see a couple of young women from one of my antenatal courses the other day - they've had their babies now. I've been encouraging them to go to some of the mums and babies sessions at SureStart, well they went to one and lets just say I don't think they'll be going back. They thought everyone was "well stuck up". And as for maybe having more in your pockets when you're on benefits - these women by the time they have paid their rent, heating, mobile phone and tv licence have £13 a week to spend on food! OK, now they've had their babies they'll get child benefit so a bit more but the poverty is staggering.

Our centre is in the middle of town and its not a big town so you can walk from 80% of the town into the centre in 20mins, maybe 30mins pushing a buggy. The centre is aimed at and serves the whole town.

SureStart centres aren't just used by either middle class mums or disadvantaged mums. There is a whole section of society in between these two groups who need help at times and perhaps aren't normally provided for because they are either not disadvantaged enough to get help or well off enough to afford to get help.

All of which are good points about targeting local children's services to fit the needs locally, and local advocates for specific communities. Not to have central control and direction of resources.

Viva I think you're being very classist and making sweeping generalisations.

Re money do you know how much councellors cost?The point is if one doesn't have the money what is one supposed to do just sit indoors sinking lower and lower just because on paper I look more middle class than others?

Sorry but a half hour walk would put many struggling mothers off.Getting several kids safely to places is daunting if you're feeling low(I know I've been there).The reason ours is so successful it's on the doorstep near the local school.All classes rub along just fine-it does happen. Mums don't have to be separated by class,money,age,education.In my experience mums get along just fine with a common interest ie their kids.A little effort is all it takes.

IloveTiffany plenty of parents DO need guidance as to how to play with their kids, read with their kids, talk to their kids and that cuts across classes too. YOU may not need any support with this but plenty of people did not have childhoods or role models around them to show them the skills to do these things- nothing to be scoffed at, it's (sadly) a fact.

our large town has a sure start centre in every ward, so 14 across the whole town.
the main one is huge and has an attached nursery, it was built in a predominately asian area with lots of classes and help geared towards them, now it is mainly used by yummy mummys in their 4x4s taking yoga classes. they only charge £1.50 per FAMILY for each session, i have 3 kids so it is a cheap activity BUT i truely cannot see how this is sustainable, it is not being used for the people it was originally built for, i hardly use it anymore as i honestly don't feel i should.

Well I think I see how things work in our Sure Start centre and see the problems. It would be lovely if there was infinate money so that everyone could go but at the end of the day there isn't. When I've been to anotehr SureStart centre (not the one I work at most of the time) I would say I recognise 80% of the woman walking through the door either from the local NCT group or from my very middle class village. The 4x4S are parked up outside.

It wasn't me who said about the counsellor but I would imagine they are expensive. I probably couldn't afford one either, though I do know that our GP refers people who need counselling for free counselling.

Its difficult to explain about the location of the centre where I work without being specific but believe me its in the best place. The whole town is deprived so moving the centre to another location might benefit the part of town it was moved to but would make it impossible for people from the other part of town to get to it.

Oh and last summer holiday the surestart centre ran a trip to the local zoo - think the cost was £1 a family and that includedthe coach there and back as well as the entry fee. Bus was full of middle class mums and their kids who were openly laughing about having "a free day out". Not really a good use of funding imho.

ffs there are lots of very worth while things that are being stopped due to the cuts(thinks day centers for adults with disabilities as an example) why should sure start be ring fenced when other people are really suffering?

Viva - If I had £13 a week to spend on food I wouldn't need a TV license.

I agree they are valuable though, the difference in my cousins parenting as a result of sure start is amazing, her first child was stuffed in a buggy whilst she chatted to her mates in the shopping precinct, now when i see her she's covered in painted spagetti and it's great for her and the baby.