zero empathy negative rather than just plain evil???

[deaconblue]

Read a really interesting article in the independent today about Simon Baron Cohen's theories about empathy. He looks at the effect of testosterone overload on a embryo and believes it can lead to a zero empathy negative or zero empathy positive mind. The zero empathy positives are people with aspergers or autism who entirely lack empathy but tend not to deviate from moral/social rules and so are no danger to others. Zero empathy negatives are the people who hurt others, rape, murder etc.
I thought it was fascinating because it seems to imply that those who do "evil" acts are genetically incapable of moral choice.
This got me thinking about A Clockwork Orange where the question of "woodness or goodness" is raised. If we could prevent this zero empathy negative condition should we?

SBC's theories about empathy/TOM & autism are just that THEORIES - many people with autism, people with children with autism & people who work with people with autism would say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (or imo it's a load of old bollocks) & SBC is a master self publicist.

prevent it as in how?

It is just a theory and how exactly is this measured?

What exactly would we do with this 'gem' of information?

don't know, if he's right and it is caused by testosterone overload in utero then maybe there may be a way of preventing that. peanutbutterontoast - all scientists theories are just theories, even gravity is just a theory. My son has aspergers and while I'm not in favour of altering genes to prevent conditions like autism or aspergers I still find the debate around it interesting.

Sorry all, I seem to have got a clutch of cross responses, not sure why. I thought the debate over whether living within moral codes is chosen or is genetic was an interesting one.

Baron Cohen is a pretty annoying person, that's why. Talk about making the facts fit the theories.

Zero empathy, my foot.

(Yup, I have one with Asperger's, too.)

bum, just lost my reply (it was long)

My son certainly doesn't have zero empathy either and I have always believed that if he did seem to be lacking in empathy dh and I would be able to help him to develop more empathetic feeling. Baron cohen seems to think that you can't be taught empathy

This overlooks the fact that actually there are rather a lot of men prepared to use violence, sexual or otherwise when it suits them,and they are often accepted/loved in thief communities and fit in just fine, and can be perfectly empathetic with people whose humanity they actually recognise

this has dick all to do with autism or ASD i think, the cynic in me says that rated than being unempathetic and unaware of social norms, violent men are all too well aware of the indifference to or even tacit approval of their violence by society, provide it doesn't completely exceed certain parameters

Oh Lordy

That should be rather and their, not rated and theif

thief communities fitted just fine with the context, though!

Empathy is definitely at least partly learned behavior. I have aspergers and I definitely am empathetic, and resent being told I have zero of it. You can't parent two children with complex PTSD and a host of other problems without being very empathetic! One of them arrived at my home not very empathetic at all, BUT over several years, she developed it. She saw me model it to her, and her older sister model it, and she made the actions first, and the actual feeling came later.

And yes, obviously you can be empathetic towards some people, but refuse to be to others

Ds is definitely more empathetic towards his family than he is when he's at school. Apparently there he goes up to a crying child, pats twice on the back, says "oh dear, are you ok?" and then buggers off before hearing the reply! I get what you mean about the actions sometimes coming before the feeling :) With me, dd and dh though he seems genuinely moved if we are upset.

Good post Chibi

Hmm would the zero empathy negatives more apply to the serial killers. Sorry I haven't read the article. I could imagine though that the zero empathy positives, are actually not that zero at all, I imagine you would need a least a slither of empathy to adhere to societal norms, wether learned or not.

People like Dennis Nilsen (I have read a few books about him) actually could adhere to enough societal norms to gain and retain friends/maintain a decent job, in his book there were a couple of friends who were totally shocked when he was caught. Same with lots of serial killers

Maybe they don't have true empathy but can fake enough to get by.

This theory doesn't really seem to hold that much water tbh.