Kirsty Young and working mothers

[Xenia]

Very sensible comments. I can't link to the Times as I don't subscribe to the online version.

You don't get public recognition for getting your child to eat pureed Brussel sprouts. The lack of recognition given to housewives leads them to become helicopter parents projecting their own ambitions on their children carting them off to Mandarin classes, Muon maths, tennis. The child becomes the expression fo the mother's achievement. The road to misery for all concerned. I agree.

The sense of something your own, not just being a facilitatio for other people's lives. The money and sense of job satisfiaction are important, she says. She has two teenage step children from her husband's first marriage and her 10 and 4.

(British at Work progreamme starts on BBC2 at 9pm on Thurssday)

I agree with you that there is no recognition for women to "just" be SAHM. It is very wrong though and sad that a woman does need to prove her "worth" by working in paid employment where she actually does not do things for herself (unless self employed) but for a boss. I think in actual facts it does not matter whether you are a SAHM or a WOHM, you still are facilitating someone else's life. In one case you do it for free because you enjoy it or because you think it is for the good of your children, in the other you do it for money .

If a man is a SAHP, people will be in aw of him yet a woman does it and she has no self estim / is not recognised as doing something worth for society. I really need someone to explain that one. Aso could someone tell me if now that my children are a bit more grown up and I work a few hours a week looking after other people children my worth as a human being and to society has suddenly increased and why?

desclaimer: I am just posteed based on OP as I do not subscribe to the Times online either

let's do it again!
disclaimer: I have just posted based on OP as I do not subscribe to the Times online/paper version either.

Haven't read it either but just wanted to say my DH is sahd and gets zero recognition beyond me and our dcs. In fact there's usually an embarrassed silence when he tells people.

Yes it cuts both ways. No one is interested in you looking after your children, whether you are a man or a woman.

That is sad too mollycuddles. The ones I know have a "court" of admirer telling them hoew great they are.

If I am being honest, for me I really do not care being "recognised" as such, just not put down for not contibuting to society because I did not work and therefore did not pay taxes for some years of my life. There are other ways to contribute than money IMHO anyway.

Hmm. I agree that there isn't enough recognition for SAHPs but it doesn't necessarily lead to the living-through-your-children, helicopter parenting thing.

I'm a SAHM and I agree it's a shame that we don't get more recognition, but it doesn't upset me on a personal level IYSWIM? All the recognition I need comes from my family.

I am finding my own ways to get praise and recognition - I volunteer at a charity shop, am doing an OU degree, I've joined the gym. I am very lucky to be able to do these things (not in terms of money at all, I mean I have a wonderful DH who pulls his weight) - and they all mean I haven't felt the need to go back to work while my DCs are little.

In fact DH has been off with a back injury for a long time. It has made us reassess our lives, and he's planning on only working PT, so that I can work PT too and we can share everything more easily.

I have to say though that the only times I've been desperate to work have been in the depths of PND, but finding other ways to boost my self esteem has helped me get over that urge.

I think Ms Young in the past has complained about parents being too pushy. I was talking to someone the other week who was going through what their children do after scool every day. It sounded exhausting. Ours don't do a single out of school organised event (although they do things in school) but that may be because I'km on to children 4 and 5 now so can't be bothered.

I also think you get just as many working parents who perhaps over organise children's free time as non working ones. The living through your children thing can happen to working and non working parents. I think though that the fact I work full time does mean I've been more laid back about the children. They are a major major part of my life but so is my work. Most adults work who are parents of both sexes and probably want both family life and work.

It all depends, surely, on whether you look for validation from others or not? Speaking personally, I'm way past caring what anyone thinks of my life choices, dress-sense, parenting style or anything else. Approval-seekers, on the other hand, will do anything to get that 'public recognition' they crave.... and they are not confined to one group of people, I don't think.

I've never really understood what recognition SAHPs ought to have.

Surely whatever any of us does within the confines of our homes and families is a private matter?
Why should it be otherwise?

agree with that wordfactory

it is all rather odd - what sort of recognition and how would/ should it happen? People have been raising children for centuries...its not rocket science. The recognition should come from within the family - not externally.

and there are tons of jobs out there that do not warrant this 'recognition' either

Kirsty Young is such a Charmer... NOT.
So, being a SAHM turns us all into helicopter parents, eh? That's why there were so many helicopter parents in the 1970s and earlier, right?

Years ago I read a DM piece by Kirsty Young about her ordeal of being a single parent. She had one child, lived with her (not working) mother who was very hands on especially as an on tap baby sitter, but Oh, things were SO tough, she had to go out to work, breastfeeding was impossible and incompatible for a lone working parent like her (she needed more "routine"), etc. What a load of tripe. Kirsty Young knows no more about the usual experience of of "working mums" than she does about the typical experience of lone parents. And she knows cack-all about what it's means to be a SAHP.

"helicopter parent"

Thought Kirsty Young was a bit brighter than this. Ridiculous generalisation and complete nonsense ime.

Yes, she is overgeneralising a bit, isn't she, especially with just one child with a hands on granny to help. Actually, i think most of the pressure for recognition comes from parents themselves, and the way in which they see themselves amongst their peers. I felt under pressure when DD started school and noticed that other parents worked at least part-time, mainly in "career" type jobs. I immediately got myself a Saturday job, various cleaning jobs and jobs in shops just to prove I was NOT a SAHM! Had I been in a different peer group where working or not working was not an issue, I'm sure I would have been far less bothered.

Thank goodness, this thread is very pro SAHM. I was infuriated after reading Kirsty Young's ridiculous article in the Saturday Times. I have been a SAHM for 16 years to my DTSs and I feel truly lucky and blessed that I have been able to do this as I realise the vast majority of working mums are not trying to "define" themselves, but simply trying to earn enough to make ends meet!

I am constantly made to feel that I must be less intelligent or have nothing to offer . I have to defend my choice to stay at home and I am often asked what I do all day and whether I get bored!!

I know a lot of extremely tired and stressed working mums who never seem to have any time to relax or do anything for themselves. They may be well defined but they often do not seem very happy as they still have to do the majority of the domestic chores or end up having to organise husband and kids to help do them!

I am reminded of the words of Mahatma Ghandi "The best way to find yourself is by losing yourself in the service of others".
Who better to serve than your own family and what better way to find yourself defined than as a mother?

Plenty of paid jobs get no "public" recognition either.

And I'm sure as hell not a helicopter parent! DS1 does do the violin - but that's because they had a free term of lessons in YR3 and he enjoyed it, and it was cheap(ish) to continue , and it was done at school so no ferrying around/running around town for it. OK yes - I'm a musician in my "other" life so I suppose that could be projecting my ambitions onto him

I'm thinking of signing DS2 up for either the dance classes held in the church hall (opposite my house ) or the local theatre (not very big, nor very fancy hehe) ones - because he loves singing and dancing and generally cavorting around in front of people.......NO WAY would that be something I'd have wanted to do (there is a reason I like playing the organ..........you can hide behind it ).

Rather irritatingly though I do get more recognition of my parenting than I do for other stuff that doesn't come uner the "mother" bracket. Usually only thing I hear about some of them are complaints - despite the fact that most of it I do for free

Most women will be both SAHM's and WOHM's at some point

• with varying amounts of time on maternity leave/ career breaks/ at home raising their family

• and varying amounts of time working outside the home too.

So, the black and white division is always annoying in these debates !

When I was solely "at home" raising my two children, before youngest started school I felt my self-esteem and validation from others was pretty much just as good as it is now. - I had good support from DH, friends, toddler groups each morning, NCT coffee mornings with like minded, mainly professional, women, who were also mainly at home with their kids etc. Parents were supportive as delighted to be grand-parents, and some time "at home" raising children was very normal in their generation.

I felt mainly able to side-step the pressure that I agree does exist to get everyone back into the workforce as soon as possible

I remember a 'friend' of mine from baby group days trying to have a whine to me about how she had lower status in society because she was a SAHM.

I asked her to remember her huge Georgian house as she sat in my pokey wee semi and said 'do you really feel lower status than me?' She had the grace to blush.

Nothing annoys me more than a privileged, wealthy woman moaning about not working. Any choice is easier if you have the cushion of a great fat salary. Working class women struggle, whether they stay at home or work.

Feminism seems to forget it is economic not gender inequality that damages lives for the majority of families.

Ithaka -

" Nothing annoys me more than a privileged, wealthy woman moaning about not working. Any choice is easier if you have the cushion of a great fat salary. Working class women struggle, whether they stay at home or work. "

Probably the most observant line I've read in a long while. There are women out there having therapy, FFS, because they can't cope with being a spoilt, shallow, bored little housewife with too much money and clearly not enough imagination.

Get a job or get a hobby and STFU.

I don;t need or want " recognition" - what's that all about?

Perfectly happy living my own life as I do.

I don't see myself as a SAHM though. I'm a woman who is lucky enough to be able to choose not to work.

I suspect that the helicopter/ heavy clubbing parentingthing is driven by personality - ie parents who feel they can't connect so easily with their kids probably end up filling their time with more activitiesjust to keep them occupied. And are perhaps less likely to trust their kids to just get on with being kids minus heavy parental intrusion.

I like Kirsty Young, but this (again not an online Times subscriber- not for that crap!) is not her finest hour.

Just watched the beginning of this on iplayer ( was watching Comic Relief programme last night - very moving )

Don't think K.Y got off to a very good start here.

• She beginns by saying she's pretty sure we'll all have just done a day's work that suits us and where everyone respects everyone else

Really Kirsty ? You may be very fortunate, ( also putting spin on your job that you love it so much ?!)
but not everyone is so lucky.
I'm probably luckier than most, but for most of us work is not something we just do for fun

I think the script writers and Kirsty should be much more careful before making over simplified generalisations about their viewers.

A bad start. Very off-putting.

May watch the rest of the programme this evening - after work.
Meanwhile I've a busy day to prepare for ...
Including getting my children up and off to school
before working with children at my son's school.

It's funny, I used to care about this before I had a baby. Now I just like bringing him up and don't really give a flying tiny gibbon what other mothers do.

Work, don't work. Shrug. Honestly don't care.