the winds of change in North Africa

[gypsymummy]

I just can't help myself. What exciting times.It is getting so tense in Libya and other Arab countries. In Libya people have not known anyone but Qadaffi since 1969 and for years and years we thought this was it: The End..but after what happened in Tunisia and then Egypt the Libyan people are finally raising their heads and saying enough to 42 years of dictatorship and utter insanity.
I just hope there is light at the ne dof the tunnel as wa sthe case in Tunisia and Egypt..

I cannot help thinking that this is that domino effect that the Americans were worried that the Commies were going to do, way back then.

It is exciting, but absolutely terrifying for the libyans as well, they seem to me a lot braver than any others as they will face full on no holds barred violence from the authorities.

I think that, unfortunately, people in the other countries of North Africa or the Middle East currently experiencing unrest or participating in protests will find that their governments and armies are not as accommodating as the Egyptian example. Neither is Egypt a 'done deal' yet.

And not just in Libya. The authorities are using live ammunition against demonstrators in Bahrain.

I really feel for these people.

I know alex, to go and protest against things when they know the likelihood of violence against them, and that the authorities are prepared for it now, is so brave, and just shows how strongly they all feel.

very true ladies but at least in Bahrain some journalists are on the ground. In Libya the world media has been banned from entry and reprting so if not for the brave men and women there sending out pictures and videos, we would know little about the brutality and savegry being conducted there. The Libyan regime has always relied on brutality and fear to terrorise its people so it is no wonder they were responsible for international terrorism.
As we speak people in the eastern region are being fired at with live ammunition and the unconfirmend reporst tell of over 80 deaths till now.
I think the world should answer those people more strongly and more pressure should be put on the regime. Ia m sure evrybody worldwide would love to see the back of that mad man and his autocratic, eccentric and brutal reign.

these people are willing to die to be able to enjoy freedoms which we here take for granted ..nothing is perfect of course not even the western democratic verison but in compariosn these oppressed people look up to what we have and dream..

quite gypsymummy, that's what I think I was trying to say. They ahve no backup, no-one to help them, and yet they are still determined to stand up for what is right. Aweinspiring.

"Ia m sure evrybody worldwide would love to see the back of that mad man and his autocratic, eccentric and brutal reign"

I'm sure everyone would and I applaud the people for trying to make a stand. However, when it comes to the Middle East, we have some bad experiences when we've pressed for regime change. Afghanistan lost the Taliban and gained an ineffective government plus gangs of murderous bandits. Iraq has gone through years of turmoil since Saddam Hussein was evicted. And Iran is a more long-term example of a regime change turned sour. The Egyptian revolution passed off relatively peacefully, but we have no idea what regime will replace the previous one.

of course Egypt and Tunisia will ahev their hard times to come because we must not forget these people and mnay int he region are simply not used to the democratic process and have been ruled for decades by an authoritarian system. There will be teething problems and hiccups for sure. Western democracies went through devlopmental stages to reach what they have now ( which is I reiterate not perfect either). As for drawing parallels between Egypt, Tunisia and Afghanistan and Iraq there are no parallels. In Afghanistan and Iraq chnage was forced onto the people from outside but in Egypt and Tunisia and indeed these days with libya and Bahrain the change is being instigated from within by the actual people. And yet they do require support, no the military kind, no, the kind you would give to support any true cause. Human right bodies should be screaming out, the world media should be reporting and investigating and super powers should be putting pressure on these brutal leaders . So no one need not take to the airships and aircraft carriers to help..there is far more that can be done for these freedom seekers.

Dp's father works in Libya for BP. This is worrying stuff.

Rumour circulating that Gaadafi is on his way to Venezuela - rumour since denied.

"we have some bad experiences when we've pressed for regime change. Afghanistan lost the Taliban and gained an ineffective government plus gangs of murderous bandits. Iraq has gone through years of turmoil since Saddam Hussein was evicted."

Pardon? What a strange choice of phrasing you've used. Yes, our illegal invasion of Iraq was indeed an appalling idea with horrible consequences, but that cannot be compared to the popular uprisings taking place.

More 'strange choices of phrasing' to follow :)

Check your history. Popular uprisings supported by western goverments can be as fraught as deliberate invasions. The Taliban started out as a 'popular uprising' ... originally noble freedom fighters that the West supported, trained and armed against Soviet oppression. And that one - I think you could argue - was a classic example of the law of unintended consequences. The Iraqi situation may have been a full-scale invasion but those blokes hurling shoes and pulling down Saddam's statue didn't seem to unhappy to be shot of him at the time.

DC in Egypt today, shaking hands with the temporary military regime, could just as easily find himself in future painted as 'leading the way, supporting the advent of ME democracy' as criticised for 'cosying up to thugs' if Mubarak's replacements are worse than what they replaced.

i am beside myself with worry and rage at what is going on in Libya..planes, artillery fire..the regime is out to destroy and kill..
We always knew he would go to any end to get his way but how many must die before he goes or dies himself?
What Libay needs now is loud voices, pressure, moral support..international media to enter Libay via the Egyptian border to communicate to the world what is going on..
let the world see the massacres and hence believe..

of course the Iraqis were happy to see the end of saddam as would the Libyans to see the end of Gaddafi..as human beings they all aspire for freedom and an end to fear..if you haven't lived "it" you don't know what people would do to end "it"...some would say we would shake the hand of the devil to end our misery..
Western political powers as a rule intervene to their own benefit and as suits them-we all know that -and even when they do advocate "democracy and change " they do so selectively and while studying " what's in for us and our own existence"..and yet..
if the human beings of this world can not stand up against or for what is universally right and morally correct then what is there to live for and to what end do people speak for their rights!
I would never call for US intervention directly or indirectly in Libya or elsewhere ..but as oppressed people Libyans or any other peoples where their oppresors were in fact either created or supported or feared by many western powers..saddam or mubarek or gaddafi and all those others have been supported or helped or created by the so called democracies in the west. these powers KNOW what these dictators do to their people and only when it no longer suits them do they start to call for change etc etc ..
what people like Libyans need is the support of the people of the world who in turn can pressure their governments unlike the Libyans themselves who have nobody to turn to.

Happy to see the back of Saddam, yes. Happy to be subjected to a full scale foreign invasion, no.

As for pulling down the statues, you might want to watch a doc called 'Control Room'.

Iraq is not better than it was during saddam's time taht is for sure..a revolution is not just about toppling or pulling down embles of a regime..it requires work and responsibilty..
once again i am saying those who invaded Iraq had their own agenda and still do..the people will always have to pay the bill

Gadafi was ranting like Hitler! Even had the same coloured 'uniform' I so hope one of his Amazon women shoot him

Horrific what is going on in Lybia. Maybe the "international community" will step in when the price of crude oil hits the roof. Till then a lybian life has no commercial value

he is a raving luantic..you have no idea what 42 years of him have been like and he has 6 sons who he has moulded to his like , albeit with a more current facade.
It is ever so sad and oh that damn oil.
He is calling for retribution and knowing him, he has no qualms over achieving his own style of it.

have just watched the footage. We have all been wondering wether the botox was poisoning him, obviously he is on a high that is going to end in an OD Incha'Allah!

the spider will sooner or later fall prey to the web it has spun for its prey..