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NHS pay cuts proposed

148 replies

Emoo · 15/12/2010 10:20

NHS Employers are proposing to freeze incremental pay progression for all staff groups, see here, and are in negotiation with the unions, see here and here. In return NHS staff would get "a commitment to provide a guarantee of 'no compulsory redundancies' for as many staff as possible".

This is in fact a pay CUT, with the burden preferentially falling upon those lowest on their salary scales. This would include nurses, doctors, allied health professionals, pretty much everyone working in the NHS. The only people unaffected are those already sitting comfortably on the top of their salary scales.

This comes on top of the 2-year cost-of-living freeze already imposed, representing a 3.3% per annum cut in real terms (using most recent inflation estimate).

Details of the proposal are not readily available, and the information below is based on an interpretation of the sketchy information provided.

For those of you who don't know how NHS pay works, here's an example. A newly qualified nurse gets £21,176. Over 8 years, their salary would gradually step up in annual increments to £27,534, reflecting their increased experience in the role. They would then remain on this salary unless they took on a different role with significant additional responsibilities. The recent proposals would mean that the nurse would earn £21,176 for an additional 2 years, and be 2 points behind on the payscale thereafter.

For a typical nurse, this would mean a cut of ~4% (compared to expected pay) in the first year, then ~7% thereafter until they reached the top of their scale.

I should point out that these increments are currently written into the contracts of NHS staff; they are not 'bonuses', and employees will have based their long-term financial planning on the expectation of getting them.

For newly qualified doctors and midwives, the situation could be even worse; midwives generally start on £21,176 and doctors on £22,523. Their second year pay would normally be ~20% higher, reflecting the transition from supervised to independent practice.

To me, it seems unfair and immoral that:

  1. a pay cut is being termed a "freeze".
  2. it preferentially affects those who earn the least.

What do others think?

OP posts:
Niceguy2 · 21/12/2010 13:51

Bottom line is Viva, i think you will find the private sector in worse straits.

So sure, the NHS staff if they feel really aggrieved enough can leave and take their chances in the real world.

It's not about screwing one particular sector for the sake of it. It's about living within our means.

nellieisstilltired · 21/12/2010 13:56

Real world -= how patronising. You obviously have no conception of what we deal with face to face.

Its like me saying you have no idea about real life. I doubt thats true either.

If you think it is so easy come and try it.

Niceguy2 · 21/12/2010 14:00

Sorry on this occasion, I was not trying to patronise. Replace real world with "private sector" then.

Do you think I sit on my backside all day and just push pieces of paper around?

Actually I do have a fair inkling of the NHS. My ex was a nurse and a good friend of mine is also a nurse. So I know full well the shit which has to be shovelled.

But I also know we cannot spend money we do not have.

nellieisstilltired · 21/12/2010 14:06

Ah well apology accepted.

If you're a tradesman then you've had it really hard the last few years.

I've no idea what you do so I can't comment. However I do have friends in the private sector and for same level of qualification as me have an easier life and perks. They continue to have these perks despite the hard times.

Niceguy2 · 21/12/2010 14:16

Sure I'm sure there are many people with perks you & I can only dream of. But there's also been a LOT of people whom have lost their job and got no perks.

telsa · 21/12/2010 14:25

wake up for god's sake - 'money we do not have' - this is such bullshit. Don't you see - that is the cover for a massive assault on working people. It's called class war and the current government are waging it ferociously, and probably quite amazed that all but the students seem to be taking it for gospel. There's money for banks. There's money for bankrupted states, when the future of long term profitability is at stake. There's money to sweeten countries who generate more profits for the capitalists in the long term etc etc. Just no money for all that was the public sector - cos the rich hate it and those who use it.

VivaLeBeaver · 21/12/2010 15:06

Mmmm, I've lost one of my jobs, I have 2 NHS jobs - one in the hospital and one in community. Community one is partly funded by the council so thats gone.

I do think the NHS could find better ways of saving money than stopping the increments. However this is an easy way of doing it. Rather than trying to stem the waste, the useless audits, the paperwork, etc.

Still from what I hear over the last few days they're not going to be allowed to do it as it would be against contract law to stop it. Grin

QueenofWhatever · 21/12/2010 15:28

'Increments are actually not payrises as such although I appreciate they do look that way.'

I cannot understand why an increment is not a pay rise. You are getting more money than you were the previous year. You are doing the same job, your job description has not changed.

Also Agenda for Change was six years ago. Many staff received pay rises through Agenda for Change. Standardising Whitley Council T&Cs was a blessing. Also anyone whose pay reduced was fiancially protected for three years. Some of the on call allowances etc. were unbelievable.

BadgersPaws · 21/12/2010 15:51

"wake up for god's sake - 'money we do not have' - this is such bullshit"

No it's not.

We're going to have to borrow £140 billion to pay for this years Government expenditure. For every £4 that the Government spends we'll be borrowing £1 of that.

And we'll borrow that money from banks, thus generating money for them, so if you hate them that much surely you would want to stop that?

We can either deal with the problem now and sort out our spending so that we live within our means, be that by cutting or raising income by raising tax.

Or we can stick our fingers in our ears, sing "la la la" (or "it's all a capitalist conspiracy la la la", whatever floats you boat), ignore then problem and then end up in a situation like Greece or Ireland where we have to make genuinely savage cuts to the public sector.

Go and look at the figures and then come back with something constructive. It would be an arguable position to take for you to say that we needed to double income tax on high earners, at least that fixes the gap between what the Government earns and what it spends. To just pretend that it's all some conspiracy or "class war" is not only living in a fantasy land but, and more worryingly, just going to delay coming up with a real solution.

If the only people who are willing to grab this bull by the horns and sort it out are those right wingers who don't really value the public sector then we've got problems. The left wing can't just be running around tilting at windmills of a class war and completely miss what is really going on here.

plus3 · 21/12/2010 15:52

I work as a band 7(sister) and am currently not facing losing my increments as it seems to be only aimed at bands 1-6.

I have no desire to become a manager, therefore my wage is now effectively frozen for the rest of my career, regardless of any extra courses (Msc etc)or responsibilities.My private sector friends all have the opportunity to have an annual salary review.

I will volunteer to have mine frozen alongside my staff, as I loathe the way this is being sold to all those on Agenda for Change (ie everyone bar the medics)as the ONLY way to stop job losses and I hate the way it is targeting the lower earners within the NHS.

Meanwhile my trust is advertising a management job on my unit at 8b (45-56K) rather than 8a (38-46K) I'm not sure how it has become worth 10K more, but I'm sure it will make giving up our increments worthwhile

VivaLeBeaver · 21/12/2010 15:53

As I see it the top of the band is the wage for that job. You don't start at that as its felt that you're not expereinced enough to. As you get more expereince you move towards the correct wage for that job. I've explained several times why I'm not doing the same job I was 2 years ago - I couldn't suture, cannulate, do IV anntibiotics or be in charge of the ward 2 years ago. Surely that level of expertise and change is doing a different job.

Anyway like I said earlier, the arguement is all irrelvent now as its ot going to happen.

plus3 · 21/12/2010 15:58

Viva...unless you work for a Foundation Trust, who have the power to opt out of agenda for change and set their own salary scales...

VivaLeBeaver · 21/12/2010 16:12

Thankfully, our trust is not (yet) a foundation trust. They are trying though.

Niceguy2 · 21/12/2010 20:10

lol @ Tesla. Nice rant based on absolutely no facts whatsoever. If you need any help preparing your Socialist Worker placard, I can probably suggest some nice slogans for you! Grin

At the end of the day if the people in the NHS think they are getting it bad, consider the rest of the public sector and private sector who did NOT get their budgets protected.

BadgersPaws · 22/12/2010 09:57

"Tesla. Nice rant based on absolutely no facts whatsoever. If you need any help preparing your Socialist Worker placard, I can probably suggest some nice slogans for you!"

That rant was beyond Socialist Worker. I've read a fair few articles by them, it's good to see all the viewpoints, and even they don't deny the existence and severity of the deficit. There's also a consistent view of what happens if the deficit gets too big as happened in Greece, massive cuts and the banks taking control.

Of course their view is that there should be tax rises and a clamp down on avoidance and evasion, but that is at least a genuine plan to tackle the problem of spending outstripping income.

Tesla seems to think that there is money there and that it's just a "class war" that's causing it to not be spent.

Genuine and well informed followers of Socialist Worker would dismiss that view as quite simply nuts.

telsa · 22/12/2010 11:42

Well this is actually Socialist Worker's analysis and also mine. The point is that it is capitalism's deficit, because it is the inherent crisis of capitalism that causes it - there is however even within capitalism wiggle room for managing it - hence the class war analysis. Our government wants to use it to hammer us all. Read and enjoy.

The Tories are using Britain?s budget deficit to justify an assault on the working class. The deficit?the gap between government spending and tax revenues?is currently around £155 billion. They say this is so high that they have no choice but to cut spending to reduce it.

They are lying.

David Cameron and George Osborne claim that Britain has the biggest budget deficit of the G20 top countries. But their own Office for Budget Responsibility predicts Britain?s deficit will be 10.1 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) this year?less than the 11 percent in the US.

And the deficit has been higher in the past?without a clamour for swingeing cuts.

The Tories are fond of comparing the national debt to personal credit cards, arguing that, like individuals, the state can?t go on getting into ever higher levels of debt.

But Britain?s level of debt is relatively low. In the late 1940s government debt was almost 250 percent of GDP. Far from Britain?s economy being wrecked, it went on to have the longest boom in its history.

Compared to other countries, the debt is not high. It is estimated to be around 78 percent of the GDP?compared to 93 percent in the US, 133 percent in Greece and 227 percent in Japan.

The Tories paint a false picture of a Britain bankrupted by heavy debt repayments. The Institute of Fiscal Studies points out that government debt interest payments are expected to peak at 2.5 percent of national income in 2012-3, and then decline.

This means they would be lower than at any point between 1950 and 2000. And the Tories? planned cuts would result in a budget surplus by 2014-5.

This shows up their real agenda: they want to use the economic crisis as cover to reduce the size of the state, increase the profitability of British companies and transfer more wealth from the poor to the rich.

Ignores

Their argument ignores the fact that the government spent £1.4 trillion bailing out the banks. Our rulers were quite happy to get into debt when the bankers? necks were on the line.

But they refuse to tolerate a deficit to ensure decent living standards for the majority.

And even if it was necessary to cut the deficit, it isn?t necessary to cut jobs and services. The government could scrap military spending or increase its income by raising the top rate of tax. The rich should pay for their crisis.

These are the kind of demands that we can raise now?and they can be won if we fight against the cuts in a powerful and a united way. These demands lay the basis for a much bigger challenge to the rich?s power.

But what if a left wing government came to power refusing to cut spending to reduce the deficit?

If it was determined to do this, and didn?t want to increase taxes as well, it would become more reliant on outside investment and borrowing.

Governments borrow by selling their bonds to investors. Investors buy them because they are guaranteed to get a certain amount of interest.

But if the government they held bonds in continued to increase its debt, their investments would seem more uncertain.

In this situation, the rich may demand higher rates of interest to cover their increased ?risk??pushing Britain deeper into debt?or they may refuse to invest altogether.

This is what happened to Greece. The bankers and bondholders withheld their money to blackmail the government into making cuts?and it worked.

If a government did default on its debt repayments, the rich would do everything in their power to punish it. They would try to take their money out of the country. They would invest in competitor states and buy up competitor currencies.

The rich would go on the rampage?and the outcome would depend on how the government and workers responded.

One response is to be terrified of the rich and to draw back from radical measures. But resistance can scare our rulers into retreat.

Ultimately, we would need to meet any bullying demands with more resolute measures?controlling foreign exchange, taking over the banks under social control, planning and controlling industry and services.

Capitalism is incredibly wealthy, yet because it puts profit before need it can?t meet the most basic of millions of people. The choice is clear?watch our living standards collapse or fight for a socialist system that is run in the interests of the majority.

BadgersPaws · 22/12/2010 12:14

"Well this is actually Socialist Worker's analysis and also mine."

It's one piece of analysis from Socialist worker, there are others, and in particular other writers recognise that the "deficit is unsustainable" (www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=11431).

Even the article above recognises the size of the deficit. And further more it says that if it is to be dealt with then it should be by cutting military spending and by raising taxes on the rich.

So the debt is there, the costs of it are high and suggestions are given as to how it should be fixed rather than by using cuts.

Niceguy2 · 22/12/2010 12:26

LOL @ Tesla. I am loving your posts. I'll try to keep it brief as its totally off at a tangent.

Firstly the US are equally screwed. They just are slower to wake up to the fact. But if you have watched the US news like I have done in the last few weeks, you'll see the eyes are slowly opening.

Secondly. A deficit of 11% may sound little but in real terms its HUGE. Plus to give an analogy. If you earn £1000 a month and over spend by £100, that's not THAT bad. But by the end of year 1, you now owe £1200. More than your entire month's income! At some point you have to start repaying but wait....we have interest too!

Now in the last 30 years, we've only ever managed to have a surplus for a couple of years. Can you see yet why it's bad?

Your whole argument about class war is frankly bonkers. Traditionally it's the champion of the rich, Tories who pay back the debt and the working class champions Labour who run up the debt. So if you want to know who's screwing whom, its Labour who are screwing us all.

As for the whole tax the rich, give to the poor thing. The fundamental problem is that there simply isn't enough rich people around.

Xenia · 22/12/2010 18:43

We cannot afford it.
In the private sector more people have lost their jobs. They haev nothing like the pensions of the state sector which we can no longer afford.
In the private sector many people get SSP if they are off sick but no pay. They get state maternity rights 6 weeks 90% pay and then much less. Some not all state workers get better deals.
In the private sector many employees have had to accept 4 day week or lose jobs so they have had a real never mind inflation pay cut.

The state sector cannot be afforded as it now is.

twosoups · 28/12/2010 13:59

I love it when people in the private sector offer to step in and do our jobs.

You don't have the skills. You haven't done the training.

Perhaps you'd like us all to jump ship and hand the jobs to you? Good luck with that when you're wheeled into A and E with a life threatening condition. Good luck with that when you need to give birth, when you need a physio. Good luck when you want your children educated.

Public sector workers and their skills are vital to the wellbeing of our country.

Are these the same people who whinge when teachers dare take maternity leave?

And for what it's worth, if you earn 100k then there's a good chance you have a large mortgage. A 20% pay cut would ruin you - though perhaps it's okay to ruin consultants. Nasty aren't they? Remember that when the shit hits the fan and they phone yours in from his bed at 3am because they need his or her expertise to save your life.

StealthPolarBear · 28/12/2010 15:10

"QueenofWhatever Tue 21-Dec-10 15:28:44
'Increments are actually not payrises as such although I appreciate they do look that way.'

I cannot understand why an increment is not a pay rise.
"

Think of it from the other direction - the final salary on that band is the "wage for the job"

StealthPolarBear · 28/12/2010 15:22

I suppose what I mean is it's part of the T&Cs when you take the job. Imagine a job where you're paid at the end of the year - you start and sign a contract on 1st April 2010 which says your salary is £20k, payable on 31st March 2011. Halfway through the year they say actually your salary will only be £15k after all.

Niceguy2 · 28/12/2010 20:01

Public sector workers and their skills are vital to the wellbeing of our country.

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