"Social class has more effect on children than good parenting"

[darleneconnor]

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/07/social-class-parenting-study

thoughts?

professionl jobs are held by people in all different social classes.

I'm not sure really - it's about so many things. I see my family as "middle class ideals, working class money"

icancancan - I totally understand your discomfort. I was the same.

Despite the fact that I had scrabbled my way out of poverty, I still felt uncomfortable around the middle classes. They seemed to just know stuff that I didn't.

My own DC are firmly middle class, happily fitting in at their private school. They know that code you were speaking about.

I wonder if the'll let me in on it?

I don't think it's anything to do with money whatsoever.
So-called 'middle class' can cover anything from one average income in a family to a millionaire, these days, anyway.
I do think there is a financial point below which you are disadvantaged almost completely, though (no shit sherlock etc).

I think it's true. I personally don't think my parents were very good at being parents. But they were middle-class and had money. They had expectations of me and were willing to pay to see them realised (and they did want the best for me). So, private school, university (was determined to get a first because everyone else in my family had one, 2.1 not good enough) and then paid for me to do a masters at Oxford. Thanks to private school and Oxford, I know that code people are talking about inside out.

All down to money and expectations of professional middle-class parents but not, I would say, particularly great parenting.

I wonder how the author/s of the study would 'decode' this statement: "Redistributive economic policies may be more effective than policies directly addressing parenting practices..."

Take from the rich and give to the poor?

Give the man a fish and he'll eat for a day; teach the man to fish and he'll never go hungry....

Parenting matters much more than socio-economic background, however, I do, sadly, agree with posters above that there is a 'cut-off point', at which the poverty in its grim reality simply takes over and the chance of escape becames very small indeed...

"Parents in professional and managerial jobs" are probably pretty intelligent people: I'm no expert but surely intelligence is, to a certain extent, hereditary - so it's hardly surprising their kids are doing better at school?

People who are long term unemployed sometimes have learning difficulties. They maybe good parents, but struggle to find work.

Intelligence is partly enviromental and partly genetic. If you have a child who has inherited their parent's learning difficulties then no amount of bed time reading is going to make up for having an IQ of 80.

The problem is that life is not simple. People can become poor and long term unemployed through bad luck. Also genetics can be interesting. It is possible for two university graduates to have a child who is as thick as pig shit.

Conversely it is possible for two adults with learning difficulties to have a child who is capable of great things.

The important thing is to make sure that ALL children have suitable educational opportunites.

Unfortunately, I think the conclusions of the study are true, ie it is not just what you do as a parent that matters but who you are.

People generally (there are exceptions) want to stay in thier comfort zone. If your parents and all the adults you know are educated professionals who speak well and know the ways of "polite society" then that is your comfort zone and subconciously you will try to stay within it as you grow up. If on the other hand, the only middle class people you meet are your GP and your teachers and they are considered "not like us", it must be very hard to even think about aspiring to such careers.

A little anecdote... Recently I went on an evening out with friends and we were chatting about our children. My friend said that she took her 4 year old son to the GP and while the doctor was typing the prescription her son commented "Oh, you have a print of "Lilies" by Monet on your wall". The doctor looked surprised and said "How do you know that?" and her son replied "Because it is my favourite picture in the National Gallery". Now, the National Gallery is free to enter so in theory any London child has the opportunity to go, but I am sure it will not surprise you to learn my friend is a surgeon and her husband is an architect.

both my parents came from working class backgrounds but they were lucky to go to grammar schools (50's) which are a rarity nowdays and my dad went to university.

my Maternal grandmother came from a poor background, separated parents etc and became a nurse and she always encouraged my mother to study even though my grandad used to say she should help in the house etc. I think they made alot of sacrifices.

don't know why things have changed so much nowdays.

" I feel uncomfortable around people born into privilege and always feel there must be some 'secret code' the middle classes use "

There's one of those 'syndromes' that I've been hearing about recently and it's 'imposter syndrome'... i.e. you rise through life's ranks always expecting someone will tap you on the shoulder and say they've rumbled you as a fraud! You are always operating outside your comfort zone. If you've done well from a low base then this is more likely (although not guaranteed) to apply to you than if you started high and stayed there. It's not that the middle classes have a secret code, it's just insecurity.

Depends on whether the parents 'CARE'.
Parents at our school range from top directors on 200k to those on benefits.
But every parent cares. Every parent does reading with their child almost every single night. Teacher told me that this was indeed true. Every piece of homework is done. 60 out of 60 dads came to the fathers day breakfast.
Every single one of those 60 children has the chance to achieve anything they want to.

?Successful people have learnt the 8 skills needed to identify and overcome the difficulties they meet and achieve happiness? ? this is the outcome from extensive research throughout the world over the last 60 years, in areas as widespread as sport, music, books, film, science and business.
I am so delighted that finally our Government may ?focus on enabling all parents to move into the ?what parents do? category and so underpin the success of their children?.
I recently ?retired? to focus upon ?helping everyone learn to succeed?, following almost 40 years as a secondary school teacher (and recently as a learning consultant) by providing support and understanding using the extensive scientific research on the everyday concerns that seem to affect almost everyone, especially parents and young people. Therefore, this report is so helpful and very well timed.
Following the success of a book I had published ?A Wonderful Life??, an easy-to-read 21st century 'Christmas Carol' , with a typical 19 year old girl, instead of Scrooge, that provides a clear understanding of why so many young people are struggling to cope, and how we can help them learn to succeed and improve their wellbeing, I received some Government funding to help to set up my social enterprise and website - www. successfeelosophy.com that attempts to address the concerns expressed in this report.

All I know is that some 13 years ago I worked with a young girl, who was very bright, very shirty, from a family who had been on the dole for 2 generations solid. She came to my (then) organisation because she was unemployed. I was her case worker - I worked with her to teach her computer and office skills. She was already very literate, having done her English GCSE at age 14. We got her a work placement at a travel agency. After 6 weeks, she was offered a permanent job there. Success! I though. Her parents threw her out of the family home for getting a job.

So we scrambled to find her accommodation, she stuck with it, is now married with children and working - but this is the culture we are up against.

I've always said only partly in gest that the best thingks mumsnetters can do for their children is get out there and earn £100k a year (and may be you've failed them if you don't) is one of the biggest indicators of child outcomes. Amusing to see the Guardian agreeing with me.

I talk to a lot of people with lots of different backgrounds, even just today - why you got to X and not Y etc. A lot of it is about different expectations of children - they were talking about a daughter and I was just amazed by the low expectations and what they thought was a good career which really wasn't.

The code stuff is interesting. I remember in my frist job feeling I had to blag it for a bit as one does but after that I knew I was good and I still know that. So what gives self confidence? It's one of the key reasons men do better than women too so it's a sex as well as a class issue. Is it just hormone levels / testosterone or something innate or the type of education you had or your class?

The attitudes of parents is absolutely essential. My mum has never worked and my dad hasn't had a job since I was 6 (I'm 24) and frankly they weren't really bothered about how me and my sisters did at school or how my brother is doing at the moment. My sister joined the army at 16 and this gave her an opportunity and direction, my other sister's best friends mum was a hairdresser and encouraged her to go into the hairdressing profession which she has. I got into a grammar school and the teachers there combined with my eldest sister ensured I did well at school went to university and I'm now an accountant. My brother is only 11 and I really worry for him as he is way below where he should be and my parents show no sign of helping him improve.

I was fortunate that I got into grammar school and had 2 older sisters to emulate and so didn't lack aspiration or belief that I could do something with myself. Others aren't so fortunate and sadly don't do anything with themselves, I see this when I look at who I was used to play with when I was at junior school.

There's isn't a code. Some people of all class levels feel wrong or inferior to others because they lack confidence. Some people who might "get things wrong" , have poor grammar, say haitch with the h or you was or hold their forks wrong worry about that. Others don't. I don't think there's a code. Different groups in society have their own words and views on what is U or non U kind of stuff but it's just a game and I think people with confidence of all classes aren't very worried about it and others live in fear and trembling they'll put a foot wrong and be found out as rather common or whatever. I don't.

As huddspur says parents' attitudes matter as so the influence of peers on teenagers. It's one reason why a good school can really help.

it is not so much code as culture - the wealth of shared experience/background that enables people to identify others as 'one of us' or 'other'

I agree Chibi and Xenia - I suppose it is all about confidence and anyone of any class can have this. However,not having much myself, I am fearful that my ds will be at a disadvantage (although he is at a private school). I am bright and friendly for his sake but still feel uncomfortable around the cut glass accents and beautiful houses - maybe I should have elocution lessons!

I also wish I'd made different decisions re; my career - I could have gone into Law or Broadcasting but looking back, it was the feeling of 'not quite fitting in' within those environments which has held me back. I will absolutely make sure my ds knows that anything is within grasp if he makes the effort and not to limit himself. We take him to galleries, the theatre, library often etc - all the things I didn't really do as a child due to lack of money and circumstances.