would you now rent to a housing benefit applicant?

[WhyMeWhyNot]

So all you Mumsnetter landlords --- in all honesty will you still or would you in future rent your property to a housing benefit claimant? Either one who works and has their rent topped up or a family on 100% benefit?

Statistics? Really? Can you point to any Expat?

I always feel that money I myself am not earning is never mine in the first place - therefore spending it on rent is far easier for me than money I had earned myself, I think.

Maybe that's why they stopped paying. You have basically no hope of saving for a mortgage on HB so you don't mind handing over the dosh.

Frrrr Insurance companys put a lot of effort and resources into calculating risk as its paramount to their business model so its more than predujice.

I suspect that the rules have been relaxed due to the rise in unemployment over the last 2 years and so the number of HB claimants has increased and the number of non HB tenants availible in the market has decreased so lalndlords have had to lower their "standards" as they need to fill their propertys in order to be profitable.

I wonder how old those statistics are, I should imagine they've changed substantially in recent years with more working families now claiming it.

It's basically just safer to cling to the prejudice isn't it.

Maybe it's a risk to let to someone who might concievably threaten your idea of the feckless poor into your property.

It's easier to rely on the stereotypes than to meet everyone and assess them based on their character and so on.

I've had so, so many rejections in the past from people 'like you'

the landlady whose previous tenant liked us and showed us round, then recommended us to her despite our being on HB. She eventually rang me asking what I could pay. I cited what I already knew the previous tenants paid per month - immediately the rent was actually £200 more than that, and she was so sorry that there was no way we could afford it.

The way that makes you feel is indescribable.

Its nothing to do with predujice, its to do with risk and I'm backed up by insurance companys.

Right.

Well, I'm not an actuary or work in insurance, Ffrrr, but they base their policies on stats. This is why, for example auto insurance is also cheaper if you're over 25 and more expensive if you are male.

It doesn't go to follow that because you are a good HB tenant, all are, however.

I can see both sides of the coin, tbh.

I used to think all homeless folks were just people down on their luck, then we had to live over a few here whom, really, I can see why they were homeless and I certainly didn't enjoy living around them (the flat below ours, and all the others on the ground floor, is used by the council as temporary accommodation for the homeless).

The majority of those who are in those flats are fab (including our present neighbour there), but not all, sadly.

Don't really see the point in flaming hudd, because it's not her fault.

The system needs a change, tenancies need changed.

We'll never own property, but if we had any to let out and were doing it just to cover a mortgage, I'd be terrified of that policy of clawing back overpaid or mistakes/fraud HB from the landlord.

I've been that person who had them come back years later and said, 'We overpaid you. You owe us thousands!' and that was bad enough that I didn't own any property.

If I did and wasn't loaded, I'd be terrified of losing the property or a lein on it.

I do feel sorry for those people who are going to be forced (due to job losses) to sell their homes, move into private rented and claim housing benefit.

It's going to be SO hard for them to find somewhere to live

I can see your points, Expat. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

I would suggest that it's more likelt the type of property that is rented out to people on HB carries a greater risk of being insecure (in terms of locks etc) and at risk of fire as it isn't likely to be maintained - for the money HB provides, a lot of the properties let to those on it are going to be well dodgy.

Also a lot of people on HB are single and only rent a room, sharing other facilites, eg kitchens and bathrooms. when a place isn't your own you tend to treat it like it doesn't matter much - nobody can work out whose turn it is to clean it - etc etc.

shared rentals are generally dreadful.
This is probably why HB properties are considered high risk.

Expat and Huddspur are right. The reason that landlords don't rent out to HB claimants is that they are a higher commercial risk than non HB claimants and you gain no extra profit by taking this extra risk.

Landlords have started rented out to HB claimants because there aren't enough non HB claimants to fill all the properties so it is worth taking the extra risk as otherwise they would not fill their propertys so wouldn't be in profit.

I feel sorry for them, too, MaMo. Very. It's not a nice way to live, IMO, there is so little security of tenure and so much 'No children, no DSS, no pets'.

My mother is always like, 'Why not make it a home?'

Um, because I could be moved on in 2 months.' It's not a home, it's a place to crash until LL decides not to renew, to serve notice, whatever.

I know, Expat. I always used to hesitate as I was afraid I'd have to move. Then I realised life was too short to live in a series of ugly, cold, uncomfortable homes especially with children to consider - they need a place their friends won't be sniffy about as well.

So I put any spare dosh we get into doing places up now. It's been Ok as some of my landlords have been so pleased they have basically said, live here forever.

It doesn't feel like my money anyway - I suppose I see it as giving back a bit of what I am given. We get to enjoy it when we're here and it improves the house for the whole neighbourhood, next tenants, landlord etc.

No. I can't get landlords insurance on my properties if I do. However, I have done it twice, my properties were both less than two years old and beautifully maintained. Both times the tenants kept benefit paid direct to them, then stopped paying their contributions (the ones that paid anything at all) and eventually left with damage done. Because they were unemployed there was no point in trying to pursue them for some sort of payment.

However, when we brought a flat for my partner, there was an older couple on HB living there, and they have been great.

I guess if some things were changed I would consider doing it again. For one, it should be possible for the rental agreement to stipulate that the HB is paid to the landlord from day 1. Maybe the government to could into some sort of insurance scheme to cover the landlords in the event that the tenants default on their contributions, or cause damage? I'd certainly reconsider in that case, I'd be quite happy paying insurance premiums for a policy that gave a rent guarantee, paid the costs of evicting non-paying or rogue tenants, and covered repairs when there has been willful damage.

p.s. Also, once a landlord has been paid HB, for tenants who were in the property covered by a valid rental agreement, then there should be no claw-back. The landlord has delivered the service after all.
I wanted to give my HB tenants a chance, I thought everyone has the right to a decent place to live. Unfortunately they abused that, cost me huge amounts of money, and therefore I couldn't take the risk again. I don't know what I'd do if I lost that much money again in the space of a year. So, no more HB for me worst luch, not unless some very important changes are made to support landlords.

MYleetle - I think the problem with stipulating it goes direct to the LL is that for many HB claimants (even those that are getting the full LHA allowance) they still have to top up - so if they're not going to pay they may not pay the top up.

Last year I was on the full HB award, but still had to top up £60 a month out of my other benefits as the only place I could find to live at the time was over the LHA allowance.

I wish there was an edit facility on Mumsnet, this thread keeps setting me off on further thoughts!
Just to clarify, I don't think people on HB are more likely to damage the property or fail to pay their rent. The problem is, if they do that, then I have no recourse to compensation. If the tenants are employed then I'd take them to court and see what I could do. When the tenants are on HB that's a waste of time. Also, if the tenants are employed, my landlords insurance pays their rent for as long as their rental agreement is valid and/or they are in the property. It also pays legal costs relating to their eviction.
Does that explain the problem for landlords? We're not all rich parasites, many are normal people fighting to make an income or build a bit of a retirement fund. I own property because I couldn't afford to stay in my own house when I got divorced. I was lucky enough to move in with DP, and I brought my little properties with what I had left after my divorce. If I lose them, I lose everything as I have no claim or interest on DP's home.

definitely agree though that the council shouldn't be able to claw back any over payments from the LL - that's totally unfair. It should fall back on the tenant for not declaring any change in circumstance etc, by reducing their benefit until it's paid back

MaMo, I'd be more inclined to take the risk on not getting a small top-up like £60 a month than losing 100% of my rent. However, if you were to leave @£1500 of damage in my property, I'm guessing I could go whistle? I'm seriously not having a go here, I'm just explaining what could be done to encourage landlords to rent to HB tenants.

I understand what you're saying, I know my top up was quite low really.

For those that are working and getting some housing benefit they could be topping up 2/3 of the rent amount, so quite significant sums of money.

It's all f*cked up.

I know personally I prefer getting the HB paid to me and then paying the LL. It means when they f*ck up I can see that they've messed it up and pay my rent out of my CTC, or whatever until it's sorted.

For example - last month for some bizarre reason the council only put 3 weeks worth of HB into my account. Thankfully I saw what they'd done and was able to pay the full rent amount to the LL by doing some serious jiggling around of money while I got onto them to find out WTF they were playing at.

This month they gave me 5 weeks worth.....so I'm presuming I'm back on track - but until next month won't know for sure.......

Of course if they calculated it on a monthly basis it would be much simpler.

I remember exH's mortgage company getting rather upset that the interest payments were "behind".......they weren't behind - we just hadn't reached the 13th payment in the year yet.

Hi there, newbie / lurker here :)

Can I just add my two pence and point out that our local LA will no longer pay Landlords directly - the rules changed so that all new claims get paid directly to the claimant - which is what happened when we moved.

I was very happy for our old LL to be paid direct by the council because it cut out all the prejudice issues of dishonest claimants pocketing the rent and leaving the LL out of pocket which has lead to the stigma attached to being a HB claimant.

Now we pay our managing agent a cheque every month when he pops in to make sure we haven't trashed the place.....

My husband is disabled, we have three teens between us in our family and have been allowed pets and I am so pathetically grateful to have been given the chance to rent this recently renovated property that I practically genuflect every time our agent turns up, and keep the place as tidy as I can (given the teens and pets...)

Previously we rented privately a flat which we had to fit a kitchen in to make it habitable and lived with black mould in our bathroom that we couldn't clean because the plaster fell off the walls and ceiling if we tried. The LL couldn't afford to renovate and the council actually said it wasn't fit for human habitation. The alternative was B&B if we were evicted and we were told we could be there for up to 18 months even though Husband disabled and with then small child. We were on the housing list and were offered a flat with damp and not enough room to manouevre a wheelchair which he sometimes needs.

It was nearly two years ago that we moved, and I swear that we had divine intervention because nearly every agent wouldn't even consider HB claimants - one big name firm actually tried to take money to do all the checks and references before admitting they wouldn't be able to house us.

Ten years ago when we moved back down South from up North and were checking out the Council provision a woman at the council actually asked me whether I would consider getting pregnant to improve our chances on the Housing List, I kid you not. I wouldn't dream of bringing another child into the world while we are dependant on the State - we didn't intend to live like this.

Maybe some HB claimants are high risk, but not all of us are - some of us just want a home to bring up our children in a stable environment so that they can do better than we have managed, and are embarrassed enough about our lives without being made to feel even worse.

That's the whole problem with trying to standardise human beings - everyone is different, and I just wish all judgements were reserved until individual circumstances have been fully investigated.

Sometimes I just wish I could dissappear and stop being a non-person. :(

You know, Frright, that's a good post and a good attitude to have. Thanks for that.:)

I hear what people are saying. I have been an HB claimant. We live in a damp-ridden HA maisonette. I will never own property.

I know plenty who do and rent them out and some who've been burned by HB tenants and those who haven't.

I hope to see this discussion progress as something those in power, who have never had to worry about money, see.

I know they have ideas, however, about who the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor are.

But from my own experience, as a council tenant and a 2x HA tenant, an educated person who's dealt with mental illness, a person who's always had to worry about money despite never having signed on, I hope if they read, the read this:

If you're to the point where you determine what is life or death on the basis of what you judge as deserving based on factors you've never come close to experiencing yourself, well, don't be surprised when people start 'Is he/she dead yet?' groups about you, or vote you out of office, or hold strikes against your policies, or write over 200 scathing posts about you and you still come on MN without even acknowledging any of them.

'History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.' - Samuel Clements

Toxickitten, that rule applies as long as the tenants pay their HB over to the landlord. Once the tenants get behind, the landlord can contact the council and get the HB redirected to them. In one case, that was after the tenant had held on to 12 weeks benefit! So we're talking about them owing me £1500 (including their small contribution) before I started to see money. By the time the council started paying me direct, I had been managing for 4 months with no rental income for that property. However, I'd paid for the boiler repair, and the electrical repairs (probably caused by the tenants). At that rate it doesn't take long for a landlord to struggle. Then, when the other HB tenants start to play the same game, sleepless nights become standard.
I've been burned by non-HB tenants, I went to court and got my money.
Expat, I'm not comfortable with the threatening tone of your post, maybe I'm over sensitive.

Myleetlepony - I think expats post was directed that those that are supposed to be over seeing this "Big Society" that we've heard so much about

because lets face it - once the cuts really start to hit home. Landlords and tenants (both the good and the bad 'uns of both sort) are going to find themselves fucked over somewhere along the line.

'Expat, I'm not comfortable with the threatening tone of your post, maybe I'm over sensitive.'

I don't threaten anyone but those who set policies they never had to live by, and even then, I abide by the democratic process because I have nothing but respect for that.

I was born and brought up a person who has utmost respect for democracy and the freedom it brings that people have paid for with their lives.

It means very much to me, both the democracy and those lives.

Because it is only in the power of government to change things.

It is not the fault of anyone but them if things don't change.

We elected them in good faith. We trusted them to represent all of us. Or if not, then we recognised the democratic process at work and that our choice was different from the majority of voters.

But in return we expect not to be taken as fools. Or branded 'deserving' or 'underserving' based on solely our economic worth to them.