Gay history in school

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

here

Great to listen to some views on this on radio 2 this lunchtime. TBH I can see both sides, neither of which are homophobic (which was refreshing in itself, the opposing views were both verbalised by homosexuals)and think to remind people that not every great person throughout history, which I think gives homosexuality more credibility as a 'normal' life path, is heterosexual....

Sorry rambling, incoherent but you get the gist.

(apologies in advance if the title encourages DP to post and would advise everyone from the off to ignore any homophobic comments that may appear by anyone.)

I'd like to see all kinds of historical figures discussed in our schools - not just the straight white male anglo-saxon ones. I think where sexual orientation is relevant to the history/work/legacy of the figure - like Turin - then it's valid to include it as part of the lesson into their story. I'd question it, however, if the gay people chosen were only ever presented as positive role models as that would smack of bias. Pretty sure there have been some negative examples down the centuries as well.

you know this will end up as a daftpunk thread

I find this quite tricky - on one hand I do want children to be educated about everybody in society, not just certain approved echelons, and I think history in schools generally needs to be broader-based and contain more social and populist elements

on the other hand I never liked being taught "women's history" as a separate sub-topic, as I found it insulting and inappropriate to be relegated as a female to a special minority

Perhaps if history curriculum designers simply stopped omitting references to homosexuality, that would go some way towards building a more realistic programme

but then I suppose gay people are a minority, and maybe some positive discrimination is necessary first - I think of the civil rights movement and the suffragette movement and can see a place for the history of homosexuality as a defined topic in that vein

difficult

what do gay MNers think?

i dunno
i really never wondered who turing was sleeping with during school
i never thought about sex though or the sexual orientation of others... times have moved on

my dds have lots of examples of lesbian and gay men in their lives and they wouldn't grow up thinking or acting negatively because of that and of course my attitudes passed to them

anything that can prevent bullying and homophobia is a good thing but
can it be done in a matter of fact way? whilst reinforcing other good policies to prevent and stamp out homophobia or gender bias (which is just as important and maybe even more pressing in some areas)

it's difficult as it's so important but I'm not sure singling out sexuality is a good thing as it further pegs it out as something different and remarkable
if there is a point to make associated with their sexuality as in with wilde but otherwise not too sure.

how's that for stream of consciousness?

"I'd like to see all kinds of historical figures discussed in our schools - not just the straight white male anglo-saxon ones."

Well most of the important figures in our history have been straight white male Celtic/Roman/Danish/Anglo-Saxon/Norman ones given that that's who ran society for the most part.

"on the other hand I never liked being taught 'women's history' as a separate sub-topic"

And given what I've just said that's tricky.

However....

We have Elizabeth the First along with Mary and Jane Gray who should be taught not because they're women but because they're important.

Likewise the Suffragettes, enormously important to the development of democracy in this country and not because they're women.

And it's the same with homosexuals. Alan Turing is enormously important to our history both in terms of the victory in WW2 and the development of computing. As if that's not enough he also links right in with the social history of this country with his persecution, suicide and eventual "pardon".

So I think there are ways of doing it without being seen to patronise with special history weeks that almost emphasise that various groups contributions to this country don't warrant inclusion in all the normal weeks of the year.

I wonder why sexuality is important.

god damn you and your concise ways

"I wonder why sexuality is important."

I think that the changes our society has made from denying rights and indeed persecuting various groups to being more open and free for all are terribly important.

And attitudes to sexuality are a part of that.

On it's own it's no more important than whether a person likes cats or dogs.

That our society was in such a way so as to drive who should have been one of it's greatest heroes to suicide just because he preferred men's bottoms to women's is quite interesting, the process of change from there to here more so.

I support attempts to eradicate homophobia but I wonder whether we should be using history lessons to do this.

What would be a more interesting & broader subject for schools would be 'The History of Sex'... rather than just confining it to 'Gay History'. The Ancients adhered to the 'if it moves, shag it' laissez-faire model which I'm sure a lot of kids would find fascinating. :) The mainstream religions then spent a disproportionate amount of effort interfering in people's sex-lives... plenty of 'thou shalt nots' and rules and regs on numbers of wives etc. Reached a hypocritical zenith in the industrial Victorian era when there was one standard of behaviour for the proles but quite different standards for the nobility. Much more interesting than just 'guess who was gay?'

An historical record, casual and not crowbarred in, within school can do nothing other than accept that important people do not have to fit the white male model. Maybe also stop the prejudice and damaging thought that being gay is a choice. Personally I think all children should cover a 'prejudice' topic, covering racism, sexism, homophobia and all children, regardless of their religion, should have to take part. Heading off prejudice whilst minds are still young is a much easier fight that with adults who have made up their mind.

You might be interested to know that there is a rise of 'Philosophy' as a subject for even quite small children. This is an excellent way to cover a broad range of topics (ethics and prejudice would be in there) whilst at the same time encouraging children to think for themselves rather than pushing 'acceptable thoughts' over 'unacceptable thoughts' - always a danger.

I was so pleased to read that one of our local secondaries has done this. I'm fairly convinced that it's important for children to be taught that famous historical figures were "gay" - although of course the word is anachronistic - because a, it helps to normalise homosexuality (esp for children who don't think they've ever met a gay person); b, shows examples of success and achievement amoung lesbians and gay men - so counteracts negative images of sad losers/perverts; c, being lesbian/gay should be a neutral fact about someone and not have shock-value attached to it - so should be included in basic facts about someone's life. Tell English Literature classes about Charles Dickens' children and about Vita Sackville-West's relationship with Virginia Woolf.