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Poor forced from the city's centre!

338 replies

redflag · 27/10/2010 11:45

Am i alone in seeing if housing benefit is cut, and the poor are forced out of the cities, buy to let homes will go up for sale then the double dip recession (actually the third dip by my counting) will kill our housing market even more.

People act like only those who are out of work get housing benefit, and also that the poor or out of work don't deserve to have nice things and like like other human beings, getting really sick of it actually!

OP posts:
violethill · 02/11/2010 16:48

Why is stating where you are a professor 'outing' yourself?

The professors I know all have a profile on their University website detailing their credentials, publications etc!

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 02/11/2010 18:07

violethill - maybe she doesn't want her real life and mumsnet identity linked.

telsa · 02/11/2010 20:56

Precisely - I want to remain anonymous on here.

violethill · 02/11/2010 21:21

Why mention that you're a professor specialising in Marx then lol

grannieonabike · 02/11/2010 21:25

Agree with Octopusinabox.

I came on here to say that I've just realised for the first time that there could be a link between the forced march of the poor out of London and the fact that their landlords are rubbing their hands in anticipation of hordes of visitors to the Olympics being willing to pay over £1200 a week (I think)for properties that are bringing in £400 at the moment.

A woman living in Dubai said that she would evict her London tenants (the ones with the wonderful view of the stadium) in order to let her properties to broadcasters and teams competing in the Olympics. Her tenants are students, btw, so they might be moving anyway, I suppose, and not all landlords have properties that overlook the Olympic stadiums.

So who makes the government's policy? (Conspiracy theory alert)

grannieonabike · 02/11/2010 21:46

lowrib wrote this on Sun 31-Oct-10 08:44:17
(hope it's OK to reproduce it here in full, lowrib)
"Not just social cleansing, voter cleansing too" good point mathanxiety I hadn't thought of that.

However I did think it was a bit strange that the Tories had to readily agreed to effectively give power away by agreeing to the new AV voting system (if we vote for it in the referendum). I know they plan to redraw the boundaries. Perhaps they hope between that and some "voter cleansing" they'll not lose too much power by stacking the odds in their favour.

For those of you who think I'm being paranoid, here's a reminder of the tory homes for votes scandal in the late 80s. According to Wikipedia:

"The Homes for votes scandal was a political scandal... which involved the selling off of council housing to potential Conservative voters by Westminster City Council. ...

"The Conservatives were narrowly re-elected to Westminster City Council in the 1986 local council elections, ... Fearing that they would eventually lose control unless there was a permanent change in the social composition of the borough, council leader Shirley Porter instituted a secret policy known as 'Building Stable Communities', focusing on eight marginal wards where the Conservatives wished to gain votes at the 1990 local council elections

"An important part of this policy was the designation of much of Westminster's council housing for commercial sale, rather than re-letting when the properties became vacant. The designated housing was concentrated in those wards most likely to change hands to Labour in the elections. Much of this designated housing lay vacant for months or even years before it could be sold. To prevent its occupation by squatters or drug dealers, these flats were fitted with security doors provided by the company Sitex at a cost to local tax payers of £50 per week per door.

"Other council services were subverted to ensure the re-election of the majority party in the 1990 elections. In services as disparate as street cleaning, pavement repair and environmental improvements, marginal wards were given priority while safely Labour and safely Conservative parts of the city were neglected.

"Another vital part of 'Building Stable Communities' was the removal of homeless voters and others who lived in hostels and were perceived less likely to vote Conservative, such as students and nurses, from Westminster. While this initially proved successful, other councils in London and the Home Counties soon became aware of homeless individuals and families from Westminster, many with complex mental health and addiction problems, being dumped in their area.

"As Westminster City Council found it more difficult to move homeless people outside Westminster, increasingly the logic of the 'Building Stable Communities' programme required the concentration of homeless people within safe wards in Westminster.

"The most morally disturbing aspect of Building Stable Communities occurred in 1989 when over 100 homeless families were removed from hostels in marginal wards and placed in the Hermes and Chantry Point tower blocks in the safe Labour ward of Harrow Road. These blocks were allegedly riddled with the most dangerous form of asbestos,and should have either been cleaned up or demolished a decade before, but had somehow remained in place due to funding disputes between Westminster City Council and the former Greater London Council.

"Many of the flats had had their heating and sanitation systems destroyed by the council to prevent their use as drug dens, others had indeed been taken over by heroin users and still others had pigeons making nests out of asbestos, with the level of asbestos in flats in Hermes and Chantry Points well above safe norms."

The tory leader of the borough, Dame Shirley Porter, was later forced to pay a fine of £12million for her part in the scandal.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 02/11/2010 23:48

Grannieonabike - any landlord betting on a massive rent increase based on two weeks in a couple of years time is likely to be disappointed.

huddspur · 03/11/2010 00:03

grannieonabike the HB cap is more likely to bring rents down due to a drop in demand.

telsa · 03/11/2010 08:28

ever get the feeling we are going round in circles!

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/11/2010 08:46

telsa - yes - because it's the kind of thing that can only be tested empirically. We have to do it and see what happens. If it doesn't work - try something else.

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2010 15:15

Marx's "From each according to ability, to each according to need" fails on several levels, but my personal favorite is how it ignores the fact that people attribute different values to different things, so that "need" is not the same across the board.

Maybe I love reading so books are extremely important to me, but I don't care for holidays at all. Someone else will be perfectly happy without a single book but loves traveling several times a year. So it is nonsensical for a central authority to send five books to each household and allow them one holiday every two years. Maybe a third person can live without holidays and books but wants his children to have perfect teeth and hence orthodontic treatment. "According to need" completely ignores each individual's priorities.

This function of relative values is called "utility function" in theory of economy. Everyone of us wish to maximize our utility function. This is why we receive payment in a universal currency and are then free to spend it as we wish according to what makes each of us happy, without anyone else judging whether we "need" those things or not.

claig · 03/11/2010 16:03

agree CoteDAzur, it's about freedom to decide our own needs and the rewards for our abilities. Who is Marx and his acolytes to decide on people's needs? and why should the Marxists be allowed to "take" from each according to their ability?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 04/11/2010 00:40

Cote - I don't know much about Marxism, so you may well be better informed than me, but there is nothing in the phrase "From each according to ability, to each according to need" that days those needs have to be the same.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2010 13:09

Sorry I didn't understand what you were trying to say.

The point is that no central authority can judge what is and isn't an important need for you as an individual.

"From each according to ability" is also useless, by the way, because not all of us will be opera singers and gymnasts, the talents for which can be tested. Who will be miners, factory workers, garbage collectors?

Those who piss of the central authority, that's who.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 04/11/2010 16:40

That's not implicit in the statement itself though. That's assuming all implementations of it will be the same. The principle embodied in the statement itself doesn't seem unreasonable - implementing it in a non post-scarcity society is tricky though.

moondog · 04/11/2010 16:43

Very good points Cote, and one with which all Skinnerien thinkers (of which i am one) would agree with vigorously.

telsa · 04/11/2010 17:07

Beduerfnis is the word Marx used for needs - it can also mean desire, wishes. You are totally missing the point. There is no central authority determining needs - they are mutable, self-generated - something most of us can only undertsand from the point of view of liberation.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2010 18:04

So your theory is that Marx meant "From each according to ability, to each according to... whatever they wish"? Hmm

Are you saying Marx believed in Santa?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 04/11/2010 18:15

As I said, I don't know much about Marx, so I don't know what he meant. All I'm pointing out is that the phrase it self doesn't imply Soviet style industrial planning.

CoteDAzur · 07/11/2010 19:09

That was to telsa.

CardyMow · 08/11/2010 09:17

The government minister on BBC news this morning - GAH! He said that the reason for the HB cap was because no-one who was out of work should be able to live somewhere that a low-paid working family can't afford. How is it that not one of the governments' many advisors has told him that low paid workers also claim hb ? It also means that low-paid workers won't be able to live where they can access their employment.

longfingernails · 08/11/2010 09:20

Not many low-paid workers claim anything like the 30% cap as they only have partial eligibility; as I understand it they will largely be unaffected.

longfingernails · 08/11/2010 09:22

Except, perhaps, in central London - where the applicable cap will not be the 30th percentile but instead £400 a week. However, it is pretty easy to get into central London.

CardyMow · 08/11/2010 09:29

That £400 a week is for a 4-bed. The average private rented 4-bed in my town in the SE is £1200+. I am paying £1000 for a 3-bed. And yes, while low paid workers only have partial eligibility, do you not think that the portion of rent that gets paid for them is going to drop also? We get £56 a week HB out of £250 rent at the moment, with DP getting £16K. If that lowers any further, we will be unable to cover our rent. They will NOT be largely unaffected, as the portion of rent paid is on a sliding scale - Full HB for a 3-bed here they pay up to £234 a week. Which does not cover the full rent on a private property anyway, so almost everyone even on the dole has to find a top-up already. It is then lowered as your income rises. If the cap on full HB is lowered from £234 a week to less than that for our area, it also stands to reason that the amount paid to workers with an income will also lower.

CardyMow · 08/11/2010 09:33

ANd the 30th percentile will include the (subsidised) rents on council/HA properties that cost half what PR does. SO 30th centile of all rents in area will go bloody no-where towards covering anything of a private rental property. WHen the wait list in our area for a council/HA 3-bed is between 4-6 years, during which, if you do not go PR, you will be in temporary accommodation, usually a B&B that is in another town 40 miles away! And once you're in PR - they take you off the council list!

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