Does coming from a deprived background really seal your fate?

[Pinkjenny]

Just wondering, really, listening to Nick Clegg on R5 live. I come from Anfield in Liverpool, not deprived really, but certainly not affluent. My mum worked in a shop, and my dad was (and still is) an engineer.

I credit all of my success (relatively speaking, of course) to the way in which I was brought up, and the attitude of my parents, who told me I could be whatever I wanted to be, as long as I put my mind to it.

Does giving children money for their first shoes and first suit really help break that poverty cycle?

Or does it depend on the attitude of their parents and their general upbringing?

FWIW
I think that it's an education that helps you get out of it (but in my experience it takes more than 1 generation-we seem to feel people shoudl do it overnight now)

Throwing money at people probably makes it worse

(And no I don't think free nursery places for 2 year olds is an 'education')

free nursery can offer structured,calm alternative for those who lack it at home.somewhere other than potentially dysfunctional,noisy,chaotic environment. for those children who do have poor circumstances nursery can offer boundaries, positive adult role models, and appropriate interactions

I think a large proportion of the target group for this money will be pupils whose families live entirely off benefits and no one works. Therefore throwing more money at the problem will not by itself help as they see their parents getting by without working so why bother doing well at school and getting a job at the end of it. Forcing parents who can work to work would be better for them ,their children and the rest of society benefits should be a safety net only for a limited time not a lifestyle choice

Pinkjenny, I was interested to know if you still live in Anfield. DH is from there and my nan and auntie lived there when they were alive so they know it well. I hope this is not going to offend but I would say that it IS a relatively deprived area now these days. DH's mum insists that her road at least has gone downhill since her kids were little so I wonder how DH would have got on in life if he was a kid growing up there now.

When DH (late 30s) was little it certainly wasn't a poor area but it was definitely working class - most people were in work and set damned good examples for their kids to follow but there were also quite a few "wrong 'uns" who have ended up in prison as they've grown up. DH and his brothers have all grown up to do well for themselves despite coming from a non-affluent background with a few bad influences here and there at school, and I definitely put it down to his parents bringing them up the right way and setting a good example, and well, just having certain expectations and standards about their behaviour.

I also think that DH's parents made a very good decision to welcome any of their kids' friends into their house at any time instead of telling them to go off out the house and meet their mates. So he never ended up hanging round in parks drinking and getting into trouble. Yes, they did drink at home with their mates in their bedrooms when they were older but it was under the watchful eye of their parents and I just think it meant that they had the whole feeling that their parents were more involved and interested in their lives if they felt they could bring friends back to their house.

Sorry,t hat was soooo waffly (tis Friday and I have wine!) and I have only skim-read the thread so if I'm talking out my arse feel free to say so!

"DH is from there and my nan and auntie lived there when they were alive so they know it well" That should read "I know it well".

No, of course it doesn't seal your fate, but you have to fight REALLY hard to get out of it, AND you often have to have some kind of benign influence on you too- e.g. the teacher, grandparent, more priveleged friend, whoever, who gives you a hand. This struggle against deprivation/parental apathy/low expectations/etc is something that those who do not come from deprived backgrounds find very hard to comprehend on a real level, even if they might understand it intellectually.
Poverty is a whole state of being, not just a lack of cash. But a lack of cash really is a very big deal- adequate housing, food, a decent winter coat, shoes...

Statistically, it is so much harder to succeed in education if you come from a poorer background. I, too, am a 'success' story (council estate, family with very little money, first in family to go to uni and buy my own house etc) but I know that my story is the exception rather than the rule. As a secondary school teacher as a large inner-city comprehensive, I know that many children from socially deprived backgrounds have parents who have, themselves, 'failed' in education and therefore do not value it. Often as teachers, we are fighting against these parents to try to help their children rather than working with them and this is what can make the difference.

privileged friend, even! Just so that you can see another way of being. I had posh friends who were so posh that their parents took a daily newspaper!!! So that was how I read the newspaper. They used to save them for me.

ICantGetMuchSleep me too- same background as you, same job, same conclusions. When one of our kids gets an A or A* it is such a great achievement, because they have probably had to fight for it really hard- nowhere to do homework, no one encouraging them, no easy access to wider cultural influences etc...

I never cease to be amazed at how many highly intelligent, well-educated, articulate, successful and emotionally well-rounded women there are on MN who have come from very disadvantaged or dysfunctional backgrounds. And the general consensus seems to be that this is policy is well-meaning, but ultimately misguided and futile.

I like what PinkJenny said:

'I agree with (the scheme) per se, but I'd like to see a more holistic approach'.

Me too. What I want to see are measures put in place to dramatically slow down the rate at which babies are being born into disadvantage in the first place - we SERIOUSLY need to reverse the trend for enabling people to have babies at completely inappropriate times, in completely inappropriate circumstances. People need to be educated about personal responsibility and forward planning. the state doesn't disadvantage a child - its parents do.

On Radio 4 this week they had a guest who maps out a child's life chances based on where he/she is at three years old. It was largely based on ethnicity, and the socio-economic and marital status of his parents, how old the parents were when the child was born etc. But it was frustrating to listen to.

Because it focused so much on ethnicity without delving into the behaviour patterns and lifestyle choices of the parents, it implied on a surface level that the problems were simply racism and poverty. But the example of the Chinese girl - rich or poor shows that it is not that simple.

My parents were immigrants who instilled in us the belief that if we got a good education then anything was possible. My siblings and I knew we were going to university from an early age when all my school mates wanted to do was to work in the same factory/shop as their parents. We never had much money despite my parents working hard but we always had books from the library, homework was always done and our school attendance was exemplary. None of the above costs money its a mindset and having the right attitudes from your parents which are the most important things to suceeding in life.

You are spot on mumzy. Unfortunately too many people think that 'disadvantage' simply means not having much money, and that giving these parents a bit more money removes 'disadvantage' and evens up the children's chances. It doesn't.

That's why a holistic approach is needed.

my parents really valued education as a way up and out.they emphasised work hard,self reliance,no short cuts lots hard work

lived in a scheme 1st person in my family to go to uni.they were hard working driven people.we didn't have a pot to piss in. i was geeky at school mammie haircuts and 2nd hand blazers.i had never been abroad til i was in 20's and working.

my career and working are inextricably linked with who i am.work gives me approbation,affirmation,and vocation

"Me too. What I want to see are measures put in place to dramatically slow down the rate at which babies are being born into disadvantage in the first place - we SERIOUSLY need to reverse the trend for enabling people to have babies at completely inappropriate times, in completely inappropriate circumstances. People need to be educated about personal responsibility and forward planning. the state doesn't disadvantage a child - its parents do"

here, here "Givesheadlesshorseman" here, here.

Even if you are poor you can read with/to your child everyday, take them to free libraries, museums and art galleries regularly take them to the park/playground regularly, ensure they eat healthily (and yes you can do that on a tight budget),don't smoke in their presence or better still don't smoke full stop, ensure they get 8-10 hours sleep each night and get them to school on time and before anyone flames me for being ever so mc my parents who were poorly educated immigrants from a feudal society did all of these things for us because they knew these were the things which would make a difference to our lives. I'm sick of politicians who just want to throw money at the problem (taking surestart for example )instead of getting the parents to take their responsibilities more seriously.

there is an attitudinal/behavioural component of good parenting.a willingness to imbue knowledge,good nutrition,adequate sleep. nurturing, positive regard and affirmation

I don't think anyone who works with disadvantage thinks that throwing money at it is the answer.

I think that's what the Daily Mail would like us to think that experts think is the answer.

Mumzy I think surestart is about so much more- we were based in a surestart centre (not employed by them) and much good work was done. And you know some of teh very basic was best- the eprson who said you can still read to them- yes, if you can read.

Almost to a unit the parents anted the best; many were seemingly paralysed by hopelessness, trauma, exhaustion (poor doesn;t mean workless- but it might mean juggling your kids and sleep with caring for your parents, that can affect anyone after all.

The people didn;t often know what was needed tbh. That list- nutrition etc- there were many who simply didn't know, they muddled: as no doubt their parents muddled. And of course there were those who were fab. And those who were truly horrendous.

I think it's true and will stay true while parents are so heavily involved in education. If you have badly educated or crap parents, and they are relied on for essential parts of your education, then you are more likely to fail.

It's lovely for us mnetters to read with their child every night and who are happy to teach their child "the four times table by next friday" but for those who don't have parents like that it's a bum deal when the teacher doesn't have time to listen and they don't practise their x tables in class etc etc etc. Social mobility contracts.

Schools should drag those kids out by hook or by crook and give them a chance despite their parents.

You can't rely on "good parenting". You have to abandon the parents, at least for a bit, and concentrate on the children.

I think the things that help kids most are:

the consistent daily presence of a kindly loving person in their lives,

having a sensible rhythm to the day,

good food,

a healthy attitude towards school and learning.

Where it often goes wrong is when any of this gets out of balance, and it's by no means confined to the poor. Note money is not in that list (other than helping to buy decent food).

I'm sure I remember David Cameron giving a speech a few months ago that basically said poverty wasn't the cause of such appalling outcomes for many disadvantaged children but poverty of aspiration and bad parenting was.

As I recall the MN response wasn't favourable but many of the posts here seem to agree with that stance - that children born into poverty can succeed given the right values and encouragement from parents.

I have to say that I also agree with Giveheadlesshorseman about trying to reduce the number of babies being born into such disadvantage in the first place.

Havibg said that the ones that are already there need help and I think this latest idea (if it is new) is actually quite constructive.

The thing with DC saying it is that you know that he is going to do very little to improve the conditions that foster aspiration and good parenting.

I agree that the ones already there need help, but surely to prevent this being a problem forever more we need to tackle the root causes of disadvantage. And that's what no-one wants to do, because it means speaking some unpleasant truths out loud, and making some radical but unpopular decisions which in the sort term will appear to 'punish' the very people it aims to help, i.e. disadvantaged children. But the cycle needs to be broken, and there is no nice way to do it I'm afraid.