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Does coming from a deprived background really seal your fate?

458 replies

Pinkjenny · 15/10/2010 11:22

Just wondering, really, listening to Nick Clegg on R5 live. I come from Anfield in Liverpool, not deprived really, but certainly not affluent. My mum worked in a shop, and my dad was (and still is) an engineer.

I credit all of my success (relatively speaking, of course) to the way in which I was brought up, and the attitude of my parents, who told me I could be whatever I wanted to be, as long as I put my mind to it.

Does giving children money for their first shoes and first suit really help break that poverty cycle?

Or does it depend on the attitude of their parents and their general upbringing?

OP posts:
Xenia · 17/10/2010 14:03

It's a stacking of the odds thing. Yes children from bad homes succeed - the ex barnardo's boy (Bruce Oldfield) etc but they are very rare. Children from well off homes at the top 20 private schools also sometimes fail but it is much less likely. In other words although many children can cope with bad circumstances most don't thrive.

Money isn't the answer though as throwing money at families with multiple problems doesn't cure the problems. We never reallly solved these issues although people have been working pretty hard on them for 200 years. We have ensured access to state education for all children and health care and tried to ensure no one starves to death to the point that most poor families are obsese, more than are normal weights so to that extent we are doing things better than in the 1800s but still not cured the core issues.

usualsuspect · 17/10/2010 14:18

Until peoples attitudes and perceptions of poor people change ..nothing will ever improve ..money isn't the answer to everything

Appletrees · 17/10/2010 14:29

Again, the swerving away from personal responsibility. It's something other people have done, or something they think -- always, not what people can do themselves.

Free education is the greatest gift of a state to the next generation. Too many children arrive at school with poor attitudes from their parents, basically ready to piss all over that gift and not only that, to remove its benefits for their fellow pupils. That's got nothing to do with anyone's attitude. It's a verifiable fact.

usualsuspect · 17/10/2010 14:37

And I find it a little frustrating to see the wealthy kids coasting along and their parents thinking they have more of a right to the best jobs and schools because of their privileges ...all middle class kids are like this {generalisation}

Appletrees · 17/10/2010 14:39

Don't you see that others might find it frustrating that some people coast along thinking they have an absolute right to taxpayer's money without making any effort to contribute?

Don't say it doesn't happen. It happens.

Appletrees · 17/10/2010 14:40

Oh and yes mine was a generalisation too, I qualify it with some. Not all, by any means.

I think the frustration of being out of work and desperate to get back into employment is terrible. I think a decent education and better parenting would make a bigger difference than a change in attitudes.

violethill · 17/10/2010 15:40

I agree appletrees.

And most of us are somewhere in the middle anyway - neither born into extreme wealth and privilege, nor into abject, grinding poverty and squalor. So it's pretty pointless to subscibe to an extreme view, that it's either the totally the fault of the feckless poor, or totally the fault of the uncaring wealthy.

I have much to be grateful for - that my parents were fundamentally decent people who kept a roof over my head, didn't drink excessively, or smoke, or do drugs. On the other hand, they were fairly distant and unsupportive, and my father was occasionally violent and I suspect a depressive. I went to a fairly crap school, where most pupils didn't stay on to the 6th form.

I would imagine many people have a similar story to tell - the detail may be different, but fundamentally a similar mixed bag of some positives and some negatives. The fact is, people do have greater choice than they sometimes believe they do. The biggest limitation for many people is themself. If I had left school at 16 having not worked hard and passed my O levels, I could blame it on the fact that my school was pretty rubbish and I could moan forever about privileged people who'd been given a private education etc. But what would be the point of that? Yes, I no doubt had to work harder and jump over more hurdles to get myself through 6th form, off to University and into a professional career (at the point where you had to pay your own way through postgrad qualfications!). But so what? If anything I see it as an advantage - I know that I've got where I have through merit rather than accident of birth.

Xenia · 17/10/2010 16:46

I know of course masses of graduates having 3 childern that age and most are not coasting into anything. Most cannot even get jobs in bars whatever connections their parents have.

usualsuspect · 17/10/2010 16:48

'I think the frustration of being out of work and desperate to get back into employment is terrible'

yes it is ,even more frustrating when you have worked hard for your A levels and degree and are looked over because you come from a deprived area

Quattrocento · 17/10/2010 16:54

"And I find it a little frustrating to see the wealthy kids coasting along and their parents thinking they have more of a right to the best jobs and schools because of their privileges ...all middle class kids are like this {generalisation}"

The middle class children that I know (can't count them all but must be dozens and dozens) all go to school, work hard, play a couple of instruments, sing, play a lot of sport and do some facebooking. They work hard, almost without exception.

I understand that they work hard from a supported environment, that they go to private schools, that they have good homes and their own PCs etc, and that it is relatively easier for them. But still, y'know they are all decent hard-working children. No sense of entitlement. In fact probably some sense of pressure because of parental expectations.

usualsuspect · 17/10/2010 17:01

and my generalisation did exactly what it was intended to do...I know plenty of middle class teenagers who are not hardworking or as you describe. I know plenty of poorer kids who are exactly as you describe ..but ok to tar all the poor kids with the same brush..just don't criticise your kids eh ...typical mn

Quattrocento · 17/10/2010 17:05

If you would like to point me to one of my posts where i have tarred 'all the poor kids with the same brush', I'd be grateful. You won't be able to, by the way, just to save you a search, because I've never done any such thing.

I'm not sure how you are adding to the debate though. I mean what was all that for? Because you felt poor children were all tarred with the same brush? They aren't.

mamatomany · 17/10/2010 17:06

yes it is ,even more frustrating when you have worked hard for your A levels and degree and are looked over because you come from a deprived area

Really ??? Is that what it is ? You see I live close to a deprived area and was told to imply I live there because it'll give me a bit of an advantage when I'm interviewed by the admissions tutor (if I get that far).
But in all the job interviews i've attended or facilitated never has where somebody comes from or currently lives ever been mentioned never mind the deciding factor.
However I don't have any accent and that was down to my grandparents making sure of it.

violethill · 17/10/2010 17:43

Agree with you mamatomany.

I have been interviewed for various posts during my career, and interviewed dozens of others in my managerial role, and I couldn't give a flying fart about where somebody was born, raised or currently lives. I'm far more interested in whether they can do the job that's advertised, strange as that obviously seems to some!

GivesHeadlessHorseman · 17/10/2010 18:37

That was a brilliant post at 15.40 violethill

usualsuspect no-one is assuming that all middle class children are bright, that they don't coast, that they don't smoke weed, but as Sakura said earlier, one way or another, statistics show that they do 'alright' in the end, in spite of their comparative failings, so who is terribly concerned about them anyway?

If a few of them are flailing around without direction or hope of betterment, subsisting on a minimum wage or benefits - tough. That's 'equality' in action for you. They had all their chances on a plate when they were born into relative affluence, didn't they? And they blew it. I'm sure that delights you no end.

But statistically there are not too many of those, are there? Or at least if there are, no-one is collating figures on them, and saying that they have been unduly 'disadvantaged' by the unrealistically high expectations of their middle-class parents, and the pressure to succeed. Wink

usualsuspect You say that people have a stereotypical attitude to 'the poor' and nothing will change while people think that way. But no-one walks into a job interview with 'POOR' tattooed across their head. They may (just may) look poor, sound poor, talk poor. But they may not think poor. Most employers are not stupid - they know intellectual spark and potential when they see it, and provided a young person has good communication skills and a bit of gumption they will be given a chance. People either come across well - or they don't. And that is the same for all people of all classes.

Of course some people will always get a foot in the door of a top career through nepotism, or having the name of a very famous school on their CV, but not many really - not in the great scheme of things. And if they walk into an interview at a decent university the admissions people will know thier circumstances in advance, and all sorts of positive discrimination will have been applied to get them that far (if their A levels are slightly below par in comparison to the rich kids) and they will get a place - if they warrant it.

What irks you, and Sakura and Edam, is the simple fact that a relatively small percentage of working class children are daring to aim to high in the first place, or seem even seem capable of it. 'There has to be a reason!' I hear you shout. 'It cannot possibly be that they just are not as bright as middle class kids! There must be foul play!'

Maybe they are just as bright - but maybe they just don't fancy or value the academic route but prefer to achieve through entrepreneurial ventures? Maybe they prefer to go into trade and work they way up to affluence that way, which is something many middle-class kids are discouraged from doing (and upper middle-class kids positively banned from.)Grin

There are plenty of well educated highly intelligent people who are not especially affluent - not by a long long way, so why should it be assumed that the only way to make a decent living is through higher education?

Of course the poor but bright children who perform very well at A level can go on to secure good uni places, and good jobs, but you won't be happy until every poor child has performed well in higher education, and it can be proven on a graph that they are all performing equally or better than children born into 'advantage.' Because in your world, there is no such thing as inherent intellectual advantage, no limits to the intellectual ability of anyone who is poor,(but the rich can be as thick as they like - just lucky) no good parenting advantage, no advantage gained through encouragement or good example, and no concept of personal drive and ambition.

No, there is only unfair financial advantage. Which means the ability of a pushy hardcore of rich parents to unfairly jump the queue by somehow 'buying' a golden future for their child - a guarantee of a highly paid job irrespective of their ability or drive. Honestly - do you actually realise what a tiny tiny minority of people that actually applies to?

And then in contrast there is the inability to 'buy' it, therefore consigning all poor children to a life of poverty and servitude.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but what blinkered idealistic tosh.

I hear an awful lot of carping about how rich parents with sharp elbows hinder poor kids' chances, but I don't hear much contructive talk about how we stop them. Or how we encourage apathetic parents to value education and encourage their children to aim higher and stick at it. Just loads of blame, and no solutions.

GivesHeadlessHorseman · 17/10/2010 18:41

usualsuspect

(sorry, I'm a bit behinbd on this thread)

Where on earth do you get the idea that people with good degrees are overlooked becasuse they come from a 'deprived areas'?

Sorry - but that is shit. The vast majoiry of people are given job on merit. Employers have better things to do than cross reference the post-code of a candidate's school and look it up on www.upmystreet.co.uk Hmm

usualsuspect · 17/10/2010 18:50

My poor invalid idealistic views are clearly not welcome on this thread.so I will leave you and your mates to back slap each others far superior arguments

Quattrocento · 17/10/2010 18:57

Nah, don't go US.

There is a valid point to be made about perceived middle-class complacency - but I'm just trying to say that it's perception and not reality.

GivesHeadlessHorseman · 17/10/2010 19:12

US Fine.

I just want you to debate, and suggest solutions and ideas, not hit us relentlessly with your persecution complex. Apart from one or two posts I think this thread has been incredibly even-handed and fair. Yes, some of us have financial advantage, (some of us even earned it for ourselves - from scratch) but we are not saying in the least that our children are superior or are entitled to be placed above your children because of it - far from it. But that's all you want to see, so it is all you see.

If we all failed to have any preconceptions about what 'poor children are like' there really would be no need to help them out at all - would there? Because they'd ALL be just as articulate, clever, capable, well-behaved, focused, self-sufficient and self-disciplined and motivated as all the perfect middle class children, wouldn't they?Hmm

The fact is, many aren't US. And it holds them back. Which is why we are here discussing what to do about it. If you want to pretend those issues don't exist you can go ahead - and I'll tell Dave that disadvantaged children don't need any more money pumped into patronising fancy initiatives, thanks, because they are doing just fine as they are.

forehead · 17/10/2010 19:16

I truly believe that a child's future is determined by the their parents. My best friend is a headteacher at an academy school
and she believes that a child will do well if their parents instil in them a work ethic.
She has told me that many children from immigrant backgrounds( mainly African and Asian backgrounds) do very well at school and that she firmly believes it is because their families realise the importance of education. Some 'English' people should follow their examples.

LeninGhoul · 17/10/2010 19:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usualsuspect · 17/10/2010 19:21

GivesHeadlessHorseman

You couldn't be more patronising if you tried

GivesHeadlessHorseman · 17/10/2010 19:22

That's a very good point. Many immigrants do not take a 'free' education for granted. They realise it's a fantastic opportunity and their children get short shrift if they waste such a gift.

Wheras we have developed a sense of entitlement, and unfortunately for some, school is often seen as the enemy, and as an extension of oppressive authority.

GivesHeadlessHorseman · 17/10/2010 19:22

That's fine, I'm a big girl - I can take it. So, US tell me your solutions.

LeninGhoul · 17/10/2010 19:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.