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Tuition fees

608 replies

stoatsrevenge · 09/10/2010 21:58

So we are to expect a massive increase in university tuition fees, as well as increasing interest ib student loans...

Here is the 6 year plan from the LibDem manifesto:

1
Scrap fees for final year full-time students

2
Begin regulating part-time fees

3
Part time fees become regulated and fee loans become available to part time students

4
Expand free tuition to all full-time students apart from first year undergraduates

5
Expand free tuition to all part-time students apart from first year undergraduates

6
Scrap tuition fees for all first degree students

How are they going to square this one?

OP posts:
webwiz · 12/10/2010 20:17

`Every school will be required to make individualised careers advice available to its pupils.'

Well she probably could have had an interview with a connexions advisor or the woman in the library who constantly spouts misinformation about university applications. Fortunately we are well informed about the course she wants to do and which universities employers favour because DH has the same degree and has been interviewing for the company's graduate employment this year. DD2 is lucky and has had to advise the other potential maths applicant who seemed to be barking up the wrong tree a bit.

tyler80 - does that mean that this year's applicants will have a mad scramble to get in. DD2's first choice uni is already asking for A*AA and an extra Maths qualification (AEA or STEP). Even if she copes with the stress I might not.

DS applies for university in four years time (yes he will be going because he is very bright and I'm sure it will be worth it)and it will be interesting to see how different the higher education landscape is by then.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 20:24

My experience was that most people 'lectured around' a bit. I was/am upset - you do not seem to have had this experience yourself so I imagine time has moved on.

Did I not cover that with the reference to the childhood experience of their parent's debt being eroded by inflation? It was/is stupid but not so stupid as all that because many people have a deep belief that debt will erode (despite all current evidence to the contrary). Actually maybe with all this quantitative easing debt will start eroding again. Then again savings also will begin to erode so people may begin to 'invest' in things they can touch again.

I gather from your posts that you work in an engineering department. That is fabulous, it is people like you who will create the future. But do you or rather your students have to pay for it as well? I do not mean to go on at you I respect your calling - but I don't agree that this is a sensible way to save the universities.

webwiz · 12/10/2010 20:26

Mamatomany - 17 year olds just don't know what they want to do when they leave university though. DD1 is starting the second year of a Biology degree which she chose because she is good at biology and finds it interesting. At this point she completely clueless about careers (as I was at the same stage in my degree). DD2 has slightly more idea in that she thinks she may be an actuary but since that is what DH does she probably knows more about the job than the average 17 year old. Its very difficult to find the balance between encouraging a degree that has some use but leaves options open.

thelastresort · 12/10/2010 20:29

I completely agree with Tokyo (AND I have 3 dcs, one graduated, one at university, one who is 15 who hopefully will be going).

People just have to get into a different mindset.

It is actually fairer now than when the old grant system was in action.

Poorer pupils will NOT be disadvantaged, once they are convinced to actually APPLY to university (the biggest problem being the attitude 'its not for the likes of us' etc).

Students don't have to rely on their parents income anymore.

There is a complete knee jerk reaction to this.

Once one accepts the principle that further education is NOT going to be free (which is another argument in itself) then the panic around getting into debt is completely misplaced. (Even that Moneysaving chap says parents paying off a students loan for them is a waste of money).

chandellina · 12/10/2010 20:37

I also agree with Tokyo on all the major points.

it's a matter of re-adjusting expectations. Higher education shouldn't be free. Parents will save to help their kids out. Working and studying is very possible. etc....

mamatomany · 12/10/2010 20:38

I agree it's very difficult, I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17 but the advice it seems is that needs to change because of the amounts of money involved now.
People are choosing their degree's based on their ALevel choices and not even considering the career at the end of the course.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 20:39

In what way 'fairer' lastresort?

I also have a 15 year old - for him this is not an issue but that is because WE are a safety net.

Some of his friends who are more 'middle' are worried by the idea. These children are at the A* prediction end - it horrifies me that they might not continue their education because they start to think 'maybe not' and don't put in the work. How would you explain this is OK to them? I cannot.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 20:41

Chandellina - Where my eldest is studying you are not allowed to work. You are also asked to discuss possible holiday jobs with the department.

I worked all the way through - (minimum grant) but I don't think that is possible any more.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 20:41

"Did I not cover that with the reference to the childhood experience of their parent's debt being eroded by inflation? I"

There's something in that. However, I'm not sure how relevant it is to people starting in HE in 2013 (which is when I suspect this is all likely to kick in): their parents will be people born in the mid sixties and onwards, and the last period of savage, sustained inflation eroding debt is the 1970s. Their grandparents' mortgage will have been wiped out by inflation through the 1970s, but I'd be surprised if there are many people currently aged 15 or 16 whose parents have in depth experience of negative real interest rates.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 20:43

"Where my eldest is studying you are not allowed to work."

That's extremely unusual. Medicine?

WilfShelf · 12/10/2010 20:44

alicatte, tokyo is right that full-time research active lecturers do not earn separate money for teaching - it is part of their job; and on the whole, lecturers cannot - are not allowed - to take additional work outside of their main job, unless it is directly relevant (eg earning a small fee for publishing).

Any additional money a salaried staff member earns is tightly controlled by the university such that any consultancy for example would usually be heavily top-sliced.

And on the issue of what it is that 'costs' at university, it is the expertise that is being paid for, and most would agree, I think, that this is a valuable part of university education. Those of us who work there are paid to MAKE knowledge, not just teach it. And we are paid to be scholars - to keep up with others' expertise also. This is what links research and teaching and is what is so valuable and vital to our economy and our education of the next generation of critical thinkers.

A high-rated department of professors is VERY expensive: 5 of them will cost in the order of 500k a year, plus all the more junior staff, I dunno, another 10 costing another 750k a year. If that department takes 50 students at 3k a year, you can see the costs come nowhere near. But those salaries are currently supplemented by the state, and research funding tied to specific projects. This is the problem we have: universities DO cost more than people realise.

Objectors will say - what, all that money for 10 hours a week? But the university is not like a school, or an FE college. Staff don't just teach, they design the curriculum, write the books on the curriculum, supervise and train the next generation of university teachers, produce innovations in knowledge, keep up with the forefront of their field. As well as all the other things that do happen in other teaching institutions (admin, marking, pastoral work, management etc).

It is a brilliant, soft-handed, privileged and lucky existence and no-one in the job should complain about it. But at times like this, our value is seriously questioned and it is hard not to be defensive about our value.

I would urge potential students and parents not to dismiss that value by assuming value for money has to be gained on a supermarket model. Maybe knowledge creation overall needs re-evaluating. But universities provide billions to the national economy, something that is often overlooked in the hysteria. And graduates are part of that - it isn't vocational training, it is training in thinking - a relatively small thing that makes a massive difference. Huge added value, in fact.

Having said all this - a defence, I guess, of the need to invest in universities as a common good - I still despair at the economic solution proposed. Wiping out a generation's aspirations in a stroke shows contempt for those only just gaining access to universities.

I prefer a general taxation policy myself, for all the reasons above.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 20:45

There was a significant hike in the 80's running to the 90's - personally I benefited from that.

I am speaking from my personal experience of children's worries now. Both my DS's friends and the children at school.

I want the departments saved too but cannot find it in my heart to accept this without a fight. Surely there must be another way.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 20:46

Maths - its pretty high up in the league tables.

mamatomany · 12/10/2010 20:46

Medics are allowed to work, they can't stop you can they at the end of the day.
It's not until the third year that they see patients at most university's and even those with PBL don't let them loose until 18 months into the course.
The Universities are also encouraging a gap year to gain hands on experience and more to the point savings from paid work in the profession you'd like to enter.

chandellina · 12/10/2010 20:51

i dispute that these changes will wipe out aspirations. A massive increase in tuition fees in the US in the past two decades has coincided with more and a broader range of students going on to higher education.

Needing to pay the money back also seems to have little effect in that country on what people choose to study - English Lit and Philosophy departments are still going strong.

undercovamutha · 12/10/2010 20:54

Wilfshelf - totally agree.

I posted this on another thread, and maybe its been mentioned on this one and I've missed it, but anyway:

'I find it unbelievable that Universities will be able to charge as high a fee as they like, but if they charge more than £6K they will have to pay a % of it to the government to subsidise borrowing costs.

So if i am understanding this correctly, students will be paying more money in order that the Government can cover the costs of lending them this additional money. Huh?

So the more money that Universities charge, the more money the goverment get. Hmmmm!'

WilfShelf · 12/10/2010 20:54

The US isn't the UK: here the expectations of the working classes are strongly shaped around ideas about indebtedness.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 20:54

I totally agree WillShelf. I was talking about the, perhaps now distant, past.

Mama, as I said I worked in bars and shops and throughout all vacations but my eldest was told not to consider 'vacation synonymous with holiday' and was indeed given a lot of vacation work at Christmas and Easter. The Summer is, of course, different but it is hard to earn a lot of money.

thelastresort · 12/10/2010 20:58

Alicatte, it is fairer because the student is not reliant on their parents to stump up the money for them to attend university.

This is all in the context of higher/further education NOT being free, which is not ever going to happen again.

You may be prepared, indeed able, to save money to pay for their fees if you so wish. Many parents could not even conceive paying that sort of money and so the loan system is invaluable for a poorer child to be able to go to university. So in that sense it IS fairer.

I don't even think about the debt my older DCs have incurred with their student loans. As far as I can see it will be taken out of their pay ONCE they earn over £15,000 (as it stands at the moment). It is just the way it is.

I can see the point of worrying about free v not free higher education, but that isn't an option, is it???

We just have to accept that universities are going to raise their fees, whether we like it or not. Personally I feel less students should go to university. I don't particularly agree that 50% should go. I think only the top few percent (in terms of intelligence) of pupils should go REGARDLESS of their parents income.(Therein lies another discussion about the disproportionate amount of private school pupils attending top universities, but that is another argument :)).

mamatomany · 12/10/2010 21:01

From what I heard the admission tutors want to see care home assistant on a nurses application, bar work might be ok for a degree in hospitality (rolls eyes) but they are looking relevance too.
Frankly I don't envy this generation and hope it's all sorted before my LO's start thinking about their future.

chandellina · 12/10/2010 21:02

WillShelf - it's a little late to start talking about suspicion toward debt when the housing market and therefore most families' wealth is predicated upon it.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 21:02

As someone whose parents did not actually stump up - to be honest I wouldn't have minded a loan option. But this sort of money? Debt is fairly permanent now and children are frightened by their parent's fear, I have seen it - today.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 21:02

" And graduates are part of that - it isn't vocational training, it is training in thinking - a relatively small thing that makes a massive difference. Huge added value, in fact."

Exactly. Which makes the degrees worth money.

As things stand, there never was "free" education. I'm often reminded of an interview with David Evans, aka "The Edge" of popular beat combo U2. He said that for many years, he wondered why they didn't operate instead as a show band, playing country and western at weddings and parties, because they would have made more money right up until (I think) "Unforgettable Fire" in the mid-80s. Similarly, even when there was "free" education, the opportunity cost of not working meant that it cost £20K of your early 80s pounds, the difference between a full grant and an A-Level job, times three. The difference between a graduate and someone with three years' experience took some years to pay back that notional £20K. There was never a time when you were immediately better off doing a degree.

I think it's often said that one of the differences between the middle classes and less advantaged social groupings is a willingness to play the long game. If you think that a degree is just about money (and I don't, and I don't think many people seriously do either) then it's a fairly easy calculation: work out the break-even point at which your total income to date is higher having done a degree than not.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 21:08

"From what I heard the admission tutors want to see care home assistant on a nurses application, bar work might be ok for a degree in hospitality (rolls eyes) but they are looking relevance too."

Hang on, could we get this straight? Are nursing degrees so difficult to get onto that the admission tutors get to be fussy about what part-time work people have done, or are people so frightened of debt that the idea of incurring the cost of qualifying for a relatively low-paid job is so terrifying that no one is applying and therefore nursing is the preserve of people with trust funds able to afford the savage costs? Because it can't be both, can it?

WilfShelf · 12/10/2010 21:08

Indeed chandellina, but the delusion this (and previous) govts had was that the poor are taking part in this mortgage debt. But on the whole, they're not, and they are still entitled to want their kids to go to university.