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Tuition fees

608 replies

stoatsrevenge · 09/10/2010 21:58

So we are to expect a massive increase in university tuition fees, as well as increasing interest ib student loans...

Here is the 6 year plan from the LibDem manifesto:

1
Scrap fees for final year full-time students

2
Begin regulating part-time fees

3
Part time fees become regulated and fee loans become available to part time students

4
Expand free tuition to all full-time students apart from first year undergraduates

5
Expand free tuition to all part-time students apart from first year undergraduates

6
Scrap tuition fees for all first degree students

How are they going to square this one?

OP posts:
tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 17:04

"Research shows that students tend to stay where they study or move nearer to family upon graduating which means fewer will study and stay in major population centres like London. That affects public services. "

The usual complaint is that London is acting as a magnet and pulling in a huge proportion of the population. Why is something that has the effect of spreading the population out a bit a bad thing? You appear to be arguing that not merely is one current effect of education to condense people into major conurbations, but that it's a good thing and should continue. If fewer people crowd into London, house prices there will fall and the massive London-centric movement of jobs to the south east would stop. That's not a bad thing, surely?

"Many people have pointed out that the debt is the child's not the parent's but who wants to see their child struggling to have a decent standard of living well into their late 40s and 50s? "

But no one is remotely suggesting that. The thresholds and tapers mean the contributions are small until people are earning above the national average, and if they don't reach that point, it's written off after 30 years anyway. The struggle comes from the housing market, not the price of education, and if I suggested that what this country needs is a 50% drop in housing prices I doubt I'd get widespread public support.

" Those who are considering the impact of huge debt on those future choices will 'shop' for a cheaper degree in a more affordable location. "

Perhaps they will. Again, is that necessarily a bad thing? A university where accommodation is cheaper than SW1 will have an advantage over Imperial, and may be able to attract good students with that. A university based somewhere with lower staff and property costs - oh, I don't know, Bangor - could offer top quality degrees at a lower cost than UCL. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Free tuition for all isn't going to happen, unless you want to return to take-up rates (and, let's not forget, the size and number of institutions) of the late 1980s. Given that, you need to consider whether the current system, which attempts to pretend that degrees all have equal value (which means that people whose parents and schools are smart enough to point them to the RG get a bargain, and people who end up at random ex college of FE X pay over the odds even at current prices) is the only possible option, if there could be a better way.

Let's accept that a real, underlying cost of a degree is about £25K. That's intuitively right: it means a year at a university costs about the same as a year in a school. Should that be funded by the state? How much do you want to put on income tax? If not, where should the money come from?

"It also creates a system whereby students who do not have to worry about future debt can apply to the more expensive and more highly regarded universities, re-inforcing the current system whereby decisions made which affect the bulk of the country's population are made by upper middle class men with Oxbridge degrees and healthy bank accounts."

The rate of people from state schools attending Oxford has fallen over the past thirty years, from (from memory) something like 60% to less than 50%. It would be profitable to figure out how that happened. It's not about money.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 17:09

"Finally the Sutton Trust report showed that most students were prepared to stomach a raise of up to £5000 but that £7000 would reduce interest in applying from 80% to 46%"

I don't believe it. I don't believe that the price elasticity can be predicted to that accuracy, or with a slope that steep. It appears to state that the difference between £15K and £21K, ie £6K, would almost halve takeup. It's the price of a decent second hand car, spread over your working life. I would be very interested to see the raw research, because a price elasticity curve like that would be completely unlike almost any other market.

Rosettaroo · 12/10/2010 17:10

Encouraging 50% of the population to go to university when there will never be graduate level jobs for 50% of the population was in some respects immoral, as it gave people false hope. The benchmark is now raised, we now have people applying for admin jobs with masters level qualifications. There is nothing wrong with an admin job, it is what I do. But I did not need to saddle myself with 25k of debt to do it when I started working almost 20 years ago.

gramercy · 12/10/2010 17:20

Quite, Rosettaroo. I think there will be far less of going to university because that's just what you do, or for the experience. In some ways it's not fair - in my day it was all free (two degrees plus two full grants plus dole in the holidays - yes, I do feel a bit guilty). But there you go, times change.

Whoever suggested it should be done on parental income - no thanks. As usual those in the middle would be utterly clobbered. You'd then get the situation where universities would be populated by the very rich and those whose parental income was less than, say £16K.

On the other hand, all the middle class kids would take all the good jobs at age 18 and be off and flying in their careers with no debt - result! And so it would all start again with politicians ruminating on how to foil those pesky middle classes.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 17:20

"Encouraging 50% of the population to go to university when there will never be graduate level jobs for 50% of the population was in some respects immoral, as it gave people false hope."

It also made that for the jobs that are graduate level, an arms race was started in which jobs that previously required a decent first degree started needing a post-graduate qualification. It's a classic inflationary market: more "money" (in the form of qualifications) chasing the same or smaller volume of "goods" (jobs). There's been a housing bubble (more money chasing the same number of houses) caused by an economic boom and a lack of new building, and there's now an academic bubble caused by a boom in people going to university and the same number of jobs.

Blair's idea was that more degrees would create more degree-level jobs. And if this were the US, where every young woman's thoughts turn to a start-up, that might work. But given most people expect their degree to secure them work for the government or large companies, neither of which are particularly short of graduates, why would you expect the government to employ more graduates just because there are more graduates? Birth rate is at a historic low (so no more teachers are needed than in the past), NHS waiting lists are mostly a solved problem (so we have roughly the right number of doctors), etc, etc.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 17:26

"Whoever suggested it should be done on parental income - no thanks."

But the 1970s and 1980s are usually invoked as the golden age, when it precisely was done on parental income. The alternative would be fees and maintenance paid for everyone: say £15K per student. At current take up that's around half a million people, so £7.5bn per year. About 2p on income tax (the Lib Dems in 2001 reckoned their 1p on income tax for education would raise £3bn). For a family on the national average household income that's £300 a year, for a typical graduate on the threshold of higher rate tax it's about £700 a year. I don't think that's politically deliverable.

stillconfused · 12/10/2010 17:30

tokyonambu - would the average student not start at 18 or 19 yrs old and be close to finishing at 22? As a parent I would rather help my children with their education (and expect them to be eternally grateful...ha ha ha) than expect them to run up a huge debt.

And what incentive will there be to go to university for someone who knows they will be paying off a loan of maybe 50k plus?

If fees go up as suggested universities will just become another type of private school which only the very well off will be able to afford.

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 17:33

"tokyonambu - would the average student not start at 18 or 19 yrs old and be close to finishing at 22? As a parent I would rather help my children with their education (and expect them to be eternally grateful...ha ha ha) than expect them to run up a huge debt. "

And no-one is stopping you from doing so. However, in the 1980s, if you refused to fill in the means test form, your child couldn't go to university. End of. They had to wait to 25 in order to be considered financially independent.

"And what incentive will there be to go to university for someone who knows they will be paying off a loan of maybe 50k plus?"

Overseas students are paying that, and more, for UK degrees. Why do they think it's worthwhile, if home students don't?

"If fees go up as suggested universities will just become another type of private school which only the very well off will be able to afford."

As was said, word for word, when the current fees structure was introduced. Takeup has increased.

frankie3 · 12/10/2010 17:37

What will happen about all the women who may have well paid jobs after graduting but may only go back to work part time after having children. They will be earning under the £21,000 limit for paying back the debt and may never earn over this limit.

GrimmaTheNome · 12/10/2010 17:38

I went to university 79-81 in the 'golden age' - the parental contribution seemed to be quite appropriately judged, the maintainence grant was just about enough to live on in crappy accommodation (with no car, TV etc) and you just about got to the end of your first degree before your clothes fell apart.

And even then, there were some people getting into university who really would have been better off not following an academic route (though equally, many working class kids who never tried, even though it should have been affordable for them, I'm not saying it was perfect).

tokyonambu · 12/10/2010 17:41

"What will happen about all the women who may have well paid jobs after graduting but may only go back to work part time after having children. They will be earning under the £21,000 limit for paying back the debt and may never earn over this limit."

Then it'll be written off after 30 years. Which is right and proper.

"the parental contribution seemed to be quite appropriately judged"

But gave the parents the absolute ability to dictate terms to the child. You couldn't get a grant without the forms being filled in, so if they declined to do so: game over.

stillconfused · 12/10/2010 17:46

Am not very well versed with statistics etc. and also come from another (European) country. Am I taking a very simplistic view if I think that if too many people want to go to uni then does that mean it is too easy to get into them? Is there an inflation in A-level results? Is there not a limited amount of spaces available?

sarah293 · 12/10/2010 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Marlinspike · 12/10/2010 17:59

I don't understand how universities could charge up to £12K pa in tuition fees. A decent private school has day fees of around 3K per term (am I right on this?) and that's for full timetables - surely the actual staffing costs + contribution to overheads can't be more in a university (look at all the free time students get for private study) so why the cost - or am I missing something?

I agree we will return to a education based on whether you can pay - I think Labour's commitment to 50% of young people going to university is a major part of the problem, as they did this hand in hand with cutting funding - of course it doesn't add up!

My DS is 16; he's a smart kid and would benefit from a university education, and from being away from home - but I don't like the idea of him being burdened with massive debt which will cause him problems when trying to get into the housing market in later life.

fortyplus · 12/10/2010 18:01

I would think that what you're missing is the fact that the staff are employed full time and will be working on projects/research when the students aren't there. Which presumably means the tuition fees will subsidise this? Or maybe that's totally wrong. Does anyone actually know?

GrimmaTheNome · 12/10/2010 18:09

I am wondering if they might start forbidding those who while bright are not good 'job material'.

I doubt that academics would wear that. Some disciplines (philosophy, maths etc) essentially require the ability to think and - even with difficulty - communicate. Many academics aren't 'good job material' themselves.

tyler80 · 12/10/2010 18:21

If/when they up the payback rate to 21,000 will it just be for the new graduates, or those on existing schemes?

PfftTheMagicDragon · 12/10/2010 18:22

I don't know fortyplus. If that is the case, I would seriosuly hope that if university were to cost so much then it would no longer be stretched out into a ridiculous 3-4 year life experiment and they could start having classes 5 days a week. Fuck knows how I stretched my philosophy degree to 3 years - no lectures until 11 and then only 2 a day. No wonder it takes so long!

If it's going to cost so much a year I would expect less years.

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/10/2010 18:23

Pfft my similare degree was similar, but DH's degree is pretty ehavy on the work in comparison- I think it varies.

GrimmaTheNome · 12/10/2010 18:28

Blimey, chemistry was pretty much lectures all morning and lab all afternoon except wed off for shopping sport.

telsa · 12/10/2010 18:32

The money also pays for research, labs, equipment, electricity, etc.

GrimmaTheNome · 12/10/2010 18:40

I think its already the case that unis like to have quite a lot of arts students because they effectively subsidise the expensive science courses which require kit, teaching etc etc.

One of the problems is that professorial salaries have rocketed. It used to be that they were at a reasonable level but academics with anything about them could make as much more money as they wanted, which was fine - good for encouraging technology transfer etc. Now arts types who actually treat the summer as vacation rather than an opportunity to work hard unencumbered by undergrads often get huge salaries.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 18:51

It seems to me that despite all the promises investment in our young people is not a priority for this government. I am sorry I voted for them.

I understand the demographics - I realise the aging population is a priority.

BUT

This is so wrong.

Speaking from the chalkface - it will affect the children, aspirations will change. Debt is frightening, the government should understand that.

MmeBlueberry · 12/10/2010 18:51

My DS is at university in Central London and his hall costs are around £90 per week, which amounts to around £3k per year. I don't think that is bad.

I believe that we need to value a university education, and that means being willing to pay for it. We need to weed out mickey mouse degrees and do something about the humungous drop out rate.

The majority of students do not need to be on degree courses, nor are degree courses right for them. They can be much better served by vocational courses, which are cheaper and have realistic job opportunities.

Schools need to do their bit by placing their students at the right institutions and courses. They should not be trying to satisfy some kind of tick list or leaderboard.

It is amazing how many students are poorly advised. They should be doing courses they can afford and that will pay-back via good jobs.

alicatte · 12/10/2010 18:56

Marlinspike its more like 4-5k per term - but not everyone can afford that.