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Tuition fees

608 replies

stoatsrevenge · 09/10/2010 21:58

So we are to expect a massive increase in university tuition fees, as well as increasing interest ib student loans...

Here is the 6 year plan from the LibDem manifesto:

1
Scrap fees for final year full-time students

2
Begin regulating part-time fees

3
Part time fees become regulated and fee loans become available to part time students

4
Expand free tuition to all full-time students apart from first year undergraduates

5
Expand free tuition to all part-time students apart from first year undergraduates

6
Scrap tuition fees for all first degree students

How are they going to square this one?

OP posts:
UnseenAcademicalMum · 15/10/2010 12:41

I would also dispute the "days of monocultures of white upper middle class men are twenty years gone". Companies may employ people from a greater variety of different countries now than previously, but I only have to look around my current and previous working environments to see that those days are still very much with us. In my current working environment, all academic staff hold PhDs from the best universities around the world and will have followed this up with postdocs also from some of the best research groups around the world. Yet, the male/female split for sciences is IIRC more or less 50/50 at undergraduate level and similar at PhD level. By postdoc level, this has dropped to 30/70 split female/male and by lecturer level you are looking at

dippywhentired · 15/10/2010 12:51

This topic has really got me hot under the collar! What is the point in children working hard at school to get good A-Level grades so they can go to a good university and end up with a well-paid job at the end of it? Unless the said job will be paying upwards of 250K, normal people will be financially crippled for life and their so-called well-paid jobs will be pointless. They will be saddled with a mortgage-sized debt before they even think about buying a house, car, having their own kids, etc. And, what's more, if we want to have doctors, dentists, etc. then we need to encourage students to do these courses, not say 'yes, go be a doctor, but if you do, you'll be struggling financially'. What should be penalised, in my view, are the courses that have 3 hours of lectures per week, and the students only need CCC to get into them Students who get crap A-levels should not be encouraged to go to university to study crap courses and get a crap job at the end of it.
Rant over...

tokyonambu · 15/10/2010 14:09

" Unless the said job will be paying upwards of 250K, normal people will be financially crippled for life"

If you earn 250K, you can pay off debts of £100K in nine months whilst living perfectly well. Hardly "crippled for life". If you earn 100K, you can pay off debts of 100K in three years whilst living perfectly well.

"Students who get crap A-levels should not be encouraged to go to university to study crap courses and get a crap job at the end of it."

Thirty years ago, CCC were considered good A Levels, and would get you into most universities outside Oxbridge. But of course, there has been no grade inflation.

" if we want to have doctors, dentists, etc. then we need to encourage students to do these courses,"

Is there a shortage of applicants for medicine?

tokyonambu · 15/10/2010 14:16

"In response to that, may I say Prince Edward, History degree from Cambridge with only C's and D's at A'level. He got in on the basis of academic achievement did he?"

If you want to laugh yourself silly about the royal family getting a free pass to do things they can't really can't, with bystanders expected to carry the can, read this military air accident report.

dippywhentired · 15/10/2010 14:27

There aren't a shortage of applicants for medicine at the moment, but my point is that if students are to be faced with mammoth debts after graduation, they may be put off doing courses that will lead to high earnings. And by high earnings, I'm not talking about 250K. That's what I'm getting at - people who pay the higher rate of tax are not just the very wealthy, but middle-income too. They are already penalised by the higher taxes (which is only right), but to add to their financial burden by giving them huge debts which will take years to pay off, will just make it pointless to strive for a good job in the first place. Not very eloquently put, but hope you see what I mean.
And also tokyonambu, I agree that CCC at A-level used to be fairly decent grades and that there has been grade inflation. This makes someone who only achieves CCC now, less academically able and therefore they will not be getting much out of a higher education.
We ought to be encouraging students to achieve, not penalising those who do so. We already have a tax system so they contribute more.

nottirednow · 15/10/2010 14:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

tokyonambu · 15/10/2010 14:39

"If you are paid 250k what do you get after tax?"

In round numbers, £150K.

dippywhentired · 15/10/2010 15:10

Just as an aside, on what planet do graduates usually earn 250K straight after graduation anyway?

From personal experience, had I been looking at paying the 20K a year tuition fees (that the foreign students, who were from extremely wealthy families by the way, had to fork out), for my 5 year course, it would have made me think twice. That is a huge debt (plus interest and living costs) for anyone to start off with in their early twenties. What are they supposed to live on, or in, for that matter when you take house prices and mortgages into consideration?

tokyonambu · 15/10/2010 15:14

"Just as an aside, on what planet do graduates usually earn 250K straight after graduation anyway?
"

No planet at all. But it was quoted as the threshold of "enough to repay student debt in 30 years", which is clearly not correct.

Remotew · 15/10/2010 15:38

I've written to my MP, with a suggestion about how bright but disadvantaged students could be selected and given scholarships, if the proposals in the Browne report are going to be made policy. As the libdems seem to be wanting some adjustments to the findings.

Will wait and see.

lucky1979 · 15/10/2010 16:41

So, this is from the president of Universities UK which represents vice chancellors.

"The biggest worry is simple to state: if Browne fails to get through the Commons, or gets unpicked, or gets accepted but only after major changes are made, we will simply not be able to replace the unprecedented reductions in state funding that are coming in the spending review."

They're (according to leaks) cutting 3.2 billion from teaching (80%) and 1 billion from research. So, the universities are going to have to make the money up from somewhere. Expensive courses, or no courses because the university has gone bust, which would people here prefer?

tokyonambu · 15/10/2010 18:12

He's shroud waving.

It's commonly being suggested, erroneously in my view but let's accept it arguendo, that a movement of university funding from HEFCE to directly via students is more in the interests of "rich" students than others.

However, if you reduced the intake into universities to only those people who could afford to pay full cost-recovery fees upfront, all departments in all universities (with the possible exception of a handful of MBA courses) would cease to exist overnight. In some of the most socially elite universities, perhaps 40% of students might be able to afford it, and the faint vestiges of those departments might survive like some Ballardian post-apocalypse. A few departments may be able to survive purely on foreign students for a few years. But elsewhere, it would be 0% funding. Almost every university would immediately fold even if departments could survive, because the critical mass to sustain libraries and campuses and sports facilities and accommodation wouldn't be there.

If you assume that people who can afford to fund their children through university with upfront payments are (a) keen to see their children go to university and (b) disproportionately likely to vote Tory, how keen are they going to be on the total annihilation of the UK higher education sector? I realise that it's fashionable to believe Tories are both stupid and evil, and the tribalist in me thinks that's only the half of it. But seriously? Could the Tories survive electorally the utter devastation of UK universities? Of course they couldn't, and why would they want to try it.

In my times of political party membership, what frustrated me was attempts to up the ante by over-claiming the evils of the opposition. If you want to discuss the failures of the marketisation of the NHS, that's a dialogue that needs to happen, and the Tories' ideas were so stupid as to be, as we say in science and engineering, not even wrong. But the claim that Tories as a party (rather than individual headbangers like Daniel Hannan) wanted to close the NHS down was never remotely true, and attempting to convince people to vote Labour by claiming the Tories will see everyone with an income under 100K dying in the streets fails a common-sense test, and makes you look silly.

Similarly, there are a lot of things to debate about the future of UK universities, and aside from the sub-coffee-room debate here (and I'm just going over to one of the campus bars for more of it), it needs deep analysis to see what to oppose and what to accede to. But to simply claim that the Tories are setting out to immolate the UK universities at the price of rendering themselves unelectable for a generation is so counter-productive as to be beyond words.

tokyonambu · 15/10/2010 18:20

"I've written to my MP, with a suggestion about how bright but disadvantaged students could be selected and given scholarships, "

Or divide and rule, as it might otherwise be known. In the re-writing of history that's used to paint the 1950s as a golden age of social mobility, that a few selected working class children were groomed for success in grammar schools and given a pathway to university is used as an alibi for secondary moderns providing a limited, constraining education to the masses. It's somehow OK to limit the life chances of the majority, just so long as hand-picked tiny, tiny minority were given golden tickets.

It's the fundamental problem with "meritocracy", which the soi-disant progressives who espouse it won't accept. There are many factors that go to make up how bright people are as measured at 11/16/18, but the moral clarity of purpose of the people themselves comes a long way after the happenstance of birth, upbringing and education. Why is offering prizes (education, careers) to people who happen to have been lucky ("bright") any more progressive than selecting on any other accident of birth. If I suggested that rich people could drive through the streets and select poor children for advantage based on how pretty they are, I would (properly) be derided as an idiot. Why is selecting people on intelligence, which is in general simply a matter of choosing to be born to the right parents, any more progressive?

gagalala · 15/10/2010 19:41

Will this just apply to English Unis and are Scottish Unis doing their own thing? The two countries have very different HE policies re fees at present will this continue?

Xenia · 15/10/2010 21:11

I agree. There are lots of reasons peoople do "well" including personality, looks, height even, accent, voice timbre, ability to work hard as well as IQ and family circumstances.

Did we do better when 15% of children went to university? In those days I think the Sutton trust found it was easier to get in if you were poor than it is now to the good places anyway. That was because of the grammar school system.

I don't think this country would suffer at all if we lots most of the ex polys and children went into work at 18 and trained in their work. We might suffer if there were not enough bright children to fill places at the better universities but I doubt that will come to pass.

tokyonambu · 16/10/2010 00:42

"Did we do better when 15% of children went to university? "

Who's "we" in this context? The 15% obviously did: they had the scarcity value of being in a position where there was more demand than availability of people with degrees. Did the other 85%? Well, a lot of them were denied the opportunity of education in order to protect the interests of the 15%. Did society as a whole? Probably not.

"I don't think this country would suffer at all if we lots most of the ex polys and children went into work at 18 and trained in their work."

Let me guess: do you see you children amongst those not going to university for the good of the country? Ah, I didn't think so.

The grammar school system of the fifties and sixties created opportunity for those that unwrapped the correct bar of chocolate and got a golden ticket (unless you're going to argue that passing the 11+ was a sign of moral superiority brought about by hard work and good living). In order to enforce that difference, in order to make the golden tickets worth something, everyone suffered. It's not a zero-sum game: you can offer opportunity to all, and my pleasure in my education is not enhanced one whit by the thought that it's been denied to other people. If the price of giving that please to more is to make mine worth slightly less in the marketplace, so what. I wouldn't be back at university doing a PhD on a grant a sixth of my previous wage, which at 45 I am highly unlikely to ever make back, if I didn't believe in education as an end in itself.

Xenia · 16/10/2010 06:31

My point is that you don't benefit that much from 3 years of drinking and being infantalised which in a sense university does for many. If you're earning a wage younger you join life earlier and just get on with it. The prolongation of youth isn't always a good thing.

We coral them away from adult life.

If we make jobs which don't reallyt require a degree into jobs needing one we just waste money pointlessly. Lots of secretaries have degrees. They might as well have done from age 14 - 16 typing courses and their other GCSEs at school and left at 16.

On the golden tickets (in my area the 11+ was abolished and grammar schools before I was 11 in about 1970 so I have no direct experience of it although both my parents won golden tickets) better some get a golden ticket than so many do not however. There are golden tickets if you're born with blonde hair (may be) or an interesting person or good parents or clever or tall or whatever the advantage might be.

If we moved back to most people find work at 18 and "ungraduised" many careers I doubt the nation would suffer. In fact market forces (IF many young people due to the changes do not go to university) will mean organisations will alter their graduate/recruiting policies.

My children? I would expect the younger two to go to university, yes but in 1979 when I went I would have expected them too because they have the traditional IQ level for university entry which I think caught about 15% of the population only so it's appropriate they go (if they choose to do so).

nottirednow · 16/10/2010 09:02

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Message withdrawn

Remotew · 16/10/2010 12:21

Better a few golden tickets than non at all.

grannieonabike · 16/10/2010 13:55

Any Questions (Radio 4) on now has just asked a question re cutting funding for Unis - graduate tax etc. Any Anwers on next.
[email protected].

UnseenAcademicalMum · 16/10/2010 14:00

Personally I think it is a pity that the poly became universities, not because they are worse quality (on the whole, many are not), but because their original purpose was different to that of a university. Polys were more like the German or Dutch "technical universities" whereas universities were traditionally about the "ivory tower". Since the polys became universities, no institution now fills this role in British education. That is a pity because now they are seen as being second-rate universities rather than good at what they actually did, which was different to a traditional university.

We need to ensure that people are given appropriate education for the job that they want to do and that the work-force is well-educated and trained in that respect. This does not mean that everything should be called a "degree".

WhoKnew2010 · 16/10/2010 20:12

As usual Unseen, I agree with everything you say ...

tokyonambu · 17/10/2010 08:38

I did not claim secondary moderns provided no education. I wrote "secondary moderns provid[ed] a limited, constraining education to the masses." which I stand by. My parents taught in all three parts of the tripartite system, and were strong campaigners for comprehensive education mostly because of what they saw as the evils of the secondary moderns. They themselves had benefitted from the grammar schools (first generation graduates in the 1950s), but didn't see that benefitting one at the expense of five was ethical.

Your argument about "ah, it didn't constrain everyone" is a variation of the golden ticket argument (which abouteve seems to support for education, but might feel less comfortable with similar arguments for health care): yes, a few people were able to make it to university as mature students, but in an era of earlier marriage and child bearing, the number of those that were women was small. The transfers at 13 were difficult in practice, owing to syllabus differences, and transfer in at 16 is hopeless when the secondary moderns mostly stopped at 15. My mother fought to do O Level teaching at a secondary modern, which was hard enough.

The problem with the tripartite system is that assumed a static society. It assumed that other than the designated elite (and, pace Xenia, isn't it a co-incidence that everyone's designated correct cut-off for university is that of their own teenage years, to make sure that they are part of the elite?) everyone else would go into a factory or office at 15 or 16 and stay there. The elite were educated, so that they were flexible; the rest received training in typing and lathes. The problem is, that was still happening in comprehensives in the 70s and 80s, and means we have whole swathes of society that were simply not prepared for post-industrial economies.

I believe that knowledge is always better than ignorance, and education is always better than apathy. I don't feel the need to deny others education in order to make me feel better about my own, and I find the whole process of assuming either that education is only there because it's profitable (might not, for example, educated parents provide better support for their children's education, even if they themselves are not working?) or is a reward for passing some bar too Brave New World for my tastes.

Yes, there has been a reduction in some standards, particularly at A Level, but I'm not sure it matters. More people are being educated. Lives like that of my grandfather, blighted by having to work from an early age and thereafter a frustrated auto-didact, are now less common. Getting more people into education makes for a happier, more flexible society, and denying education to some to make it more valuable to others (the "too many graduates") argument strikes me as profoundly immoral.

But if people don't believe in the benefits of mass higher education, the question "how do you fund mass higher education?" makes no sense. So we talk past each other.

My father was told by a distinguished sugar chemist, in a department that had recently won a Nobel Prize and been at the heart of Tube Alloys, the British Atomic Bomb programme, that his undergraduate colleagues (this tirade was directed at one bench group of five people) were the worst year the university had ever seen. Standards were dropping because of the increase in numbers. Too many people were being admitted into the university, and there simply weren't enough bright people to benefit from it.

The year was 1955. University takeup was around 3%. Of the five people in question, two went on to become professors, one a very distinguished research chemist at ICI and the other two successful academic careers retiring as principal lecturers.

The sugar chemist had a building named after him at a London university. It's now a biology department (the Bourne Laboratory at Royal Holloway). Sic transit gloria mundi.

LilyBolero · 17/10/2010 09:47

The problem with scholarships is that it then gives the wealthy carte blanche to charge what they like, because 'poor people can go too'.

Private schools and public schools do it. Take the public school near us. Fees are 21k+ a year. Supposing there are 100 children in a year. There will be 1 or maybe 2 'significant' scholarships/bursaries (by which I mean worth enough to enable a disadvantaged family to access the school - a 30% scholarship for example would still mean finding fees of 15k which for most is prohibitive). So 1 child from a disadvantaged home, 99 children from rich homes. And if you're not 'poor enough' then you have no chance of going - the school is not available to those on incomes of 20k to, let's say, 80k.

The same would happen with university. The existence of scholarships would simply excuse the high fees, and they would point to the 'token poor child' and say - look you CAN get in on ability alone. But for most children from families other than the very rich, the prospect of annual fees of 7-12k is daunting, and for many unmanageable. (I do understand about the way it would work, but tbh, I can't encourage my kids to start their lives with 50-60k of debt).

As usual, the rich win. One or two 'poor' people are helped to improve their public image. And the rest of them, plus all of the middle can just go drown themselves.

Xenia · 17/10/2010 10:05

tokyo, But you can get a lot of education up to age 18. Afterthat some course are quesntionable. I don't think the 3 years at university studying on a course with DDD the entrance requirement is really advancing society or those people. The teenagers might as well get a job and study dance skills or theatre studies or whatever it is at night school. it's just pointless to require some subjects to be taught within a univesrity environment. I was very keen to get on fast adn work. Although I had to do post graduate stuff I graduated at 20 as I went to university a year young and I have been working full time since I was 21 and I do think that the fact I have 27 years exoperience in my 40s is great, better than studying to age 30 and it meant at 26 I could have 3 chidlren under 4, a full time job in the city, a nanny and a house. A lot of children just want to get on with life and not mess around just studying adn putting off the day when they move from child to adult. Also if you want your babies in your 20s when physically it may be best then you also might want to be in work sooner.