The Tory attack on family 'v' The State of the Economy. I don't want to like the Tories, I Would Rather Eat my Own Arse. So help Me Understand

[Tortington]

abolition of Child Trust Funds;

money in bank for being born was always a shit idea. lets give kids £100 for existing.

the economy down the shitter - i think its proper that we pull this.

the Health in Pregnancy Grant;

not essential is it. does one reaaaaaaaally need a grant to be healthy in pregnancy?

jesus again i have to say - as a benefit to be pulled, its hardly essential considering that cut back have to be made

Surestart Maternity Grant for second child;

i dont know what this is- more money for having children?

the three-year freeze on child benefits whats the problem
and the introduction of housing benefit caps.
great

then theres the biggee - CB.

WTF am i not seeing that everyone seems to be going apoplectic about?

is there general agreement that a cb cut should be on household income? is it that its unfair in this way?

if that is the case - i see the point.

if its just bitching becuase people who earn over 45k aren't getting cb, then im finding it hard to agree.

and the argument that its a failsafe paid to women that help them get out of abused situations etc - you can't just pay women benefits on the offchance that one dayt hey will be abused.

am i missing a mahoosive point?

tell me the tories are targeting poor people like this but are not targeting rich people.

tell me that yes yes!! yes yes yes!!! you would agree with benefits like this being withdrawn, IF he also targetted rich people by some tax or other

tell me the equality?

they seem like non essential benefits to me - that have to be reined in cos we're financially up the shitter? or are we - maybe we aren't financially up the shitter and its a huge lie and the tories are just lying and whipping poor people? tell me?

Hello there. I have just read pretty much all of this thread and wanted to contribute, but firstly wanted to say what a great thread it is - it hasn't descended into the back-biting, sniping and name-calling that this type of topic usually does. V refreshing - which is why I would like to post on it! bit late to the debate I know.

Anyway, just in response to the issue of the wealthy leaving the country and therefore leaving a glut of jobs for people to step up to, freeing up houses etc ... I just don't think it works like this. I hear that the City is already having problems recruiting because of the 50% rate - we're talking finance, banking, insurance sectors here (sorry I know we all love to hate bankers), where there is a great deal of international movement. So UK citizens will go abroad to work in more tax-friendly havens. And companies who can't recruit or find their costs are getting too high, or that their star teams are disgruntled will, quite simply, pack up shop and move. So the top jobs move too. They don't stay waiting for more people to move up a level. If the wealthy leave, their jobs leave with them. Those people may well keep a house here though and rent it out, and spend that profit where they live, but not in the UK.

And while some companies will move parts of their business to Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands, or Bermuda, others will shut up shop and relocate entirely. So the lower paid people, the middle managers and admin and support staff will lose out - because those jobs can be recruited for locally anywhere in the world, no company is going to spend the money relocating these people.

That's just one part of the argument, but honestly, we don't want to lose those top earners.

Yep

So there is a widespread belief that if we put say 2p on income tax for people on the £40K whatever it is band, there would be a mass exodus?

TBH I've worked in the industries mentioned above and people weren't great shakes. Plenty of people able to step up.

I still find it interesting that tories assume that everyone thinks the same as they do. It's all very interesting.

Again, it's just a different way of thinking. I am happy to pay my taxes and would be happy to pay more. I believe that it is important to assist the vulnerable in our society, and to provide certain minimum standards of living. I do not believe that children should be punished because the govt disapproves of their parents choices.

I would also like to see a society with a smaller gap between the rich and the poor, and more social mobility.

Just a different take on things, isn't it.

ISNT, I don't know what the tipping point is for people / companies to relocate (and it might be about regulation as much as it's about taxation) - but the fact of there being other people keen to step up is irrelevant. It's about the jobs moving abroad, hence those earners go too.

I don't know if you mean me by the last line on tories thinking that everyone else thinks the same as they do? I don't think that's true - some tories are idiot, far-right, up themselves twats. Some Labour members are idiot, far-left up themselves twats. Both parties boast lots of people nearer to the middle with slightly differing views about eg the need for state intervention.

oh yes, xposted on your point re being happy to pay more taxes, then I agree that a lot of people would take that on the chin without complaint. but there is a group of people who earn ludicrous amounts of money, the lifestyle and the way in which they work are tied in with the money and they somehow "need" more and more cash. Now, if you work hard and someone's willing to pay you lots of cash, or you make it yourself, then it's not fair to say you should give most of it away - where's the incentive to work all hours, take on the stress etc.

But I would agree that some very wealthy people are completely out of touch with the realities of life for normal people (and I mean normally doing-ok people, not scraping the breadline poor or those existing on benefits alone).

No it wasn't aimed at you potkettle just a general comment.

Thing is that my POV is out of favour, the poor are about to be punished, we have a tory govt, nothing I can do about it. A lot of people have their wish.

I am scared, that's teh problem. Not for my family (we are pretty well heeled) but for society at large, and people who are not as fortunate.

And that's the difference isn't it. I see us as fortunate, and want to help others to gain good fortune. A tory in the same place would think that they deserved it and why should anyone else benefit from what is theirs. just a different viewpoint.

ISNT, I too feel scared about the future but I also feel a faint glimmer of hope that outrage at what the Tories are doing will turn the tide so your point of view will no longer be out of favour. Compassion was out of fashion (think that's a line from an Elvis Costello song actually!) under Thatcher but with Labour that changed and there was plenty of talk of a compassionate society and it even materialised in some ways - for example, the govt helping people stay in their homes in 2008/9 if they were forced to default on their mortgage was a massive contrast to the brutal repossessions of the late Eighties.

I don't think we will stand by and watch the poor being punished this time. Plus, there's an encouraging breed of activism in our children's generation that doesn't think in terms of party politics so much but looks at things on an issue-by-issue basis, and is also pretty impervious to media spin. I live in a fairly middle class town but am immensely cheered by the fact that at my 13-year-old son's school, most of his friends think the Tories are divorced from everyday life and the Daily Mail is a standing joke.

"the govt helping people stay in their homes in 2008/9 if they were forced to default on their mortgage"

The SMI (Support for Mortgage Interest) scheme is a scandalous waste of taxpayer money.

The Labour government paid 6.08% interest on mortages up to £200k irrespective of what the actual mortage rate was. In many cases the tracker rate on the actual mortgage was 0.5%-1%. So for up to 2 years people can get the taxpayer to overpay on their mortgage to the tune of 5.0%+.

How is that possibly fair? Why should my tax give somebody a free £20k+ handout.

When most of us buy a house, we calculate what might happen if we lose our jobs and make sure we have enough savings put by to protect us (or we take out employment insurance). If it's too much of a stretch you don't buy a house. These schemes just encourage huge moral hazard and no personal responsibilty.

I don't know the ins and outs of the mortgage thing, but surely it will always be cheaper to pay some interest on a mortgage than entirely rehome them? And they will recover more quickly from that position afterwards if they are not left with a huge debt of negative equity?

Employment insurance is a joke; when DH was made redundant from a failing firm many, many ears ago his rather depressed employer refused to sign any forms for anyone.

So the insurance we had responsibly paid said no chance, missus.

And we lost the house (savings already gone due to DH being ill for a six month some time before).

Life events don't hit you in singles IME: DH's last redundancy was ostensibly due to us not being able to relocate (the kid's disability) but we were quietly assured that he was picked as one mainly becuase he'd ahd the temerity to ask for flexible working (again, the kid's disability.....).

I agree with a lot of what ISNT said. I;d worry about this mass exodus of higher paid workers if I beleived it would be an entirety thing; it wouldn;t. there would be some and in a replaceable number ( we need jobs mobilility for goodness sake- we hardly have no reserves of perfectly empoyable people looking. I mean, hello! Grad here, most of way to an MA, not getting a look in anywhere!)

Most people have a spuse in a job they wouldn;t want to leave, children in schools they wish to stick with, elderly aprents, friends........... DH and I have considered whipping off to Europe as soon as we both qualify and staying there until the tories are out (both of us will work in shortage areas, albeit incredibly different ones) but we won't, because of family. There's no price on that. Would have to be Europe as SN kids can't go to Canada, USA etc- where the big opportunities seem to be.

'"ISNT the market by its very nature does not consider those things as it is only interested in the efficient allocation of rersources and the maximisation of output it does not take into account social considerations."
'
The amrket is in error; plenty of people enable to work and thus contribute if social resposibilities are met correctly, from accurate support of people with a MH issue through to SN childcare provision (and it doesn't have to be free- I am willing to pay the same as anyone else, I don;t see why I should pay a premium for soemthing I never asked for) via learning, training and literacy skills for those who did not manage to acquire them at a young age. And ther there's kids like ds3 who we are finding has a talent for maths (been palced in a year group 6 tuition group whilst in year 3) but has an ASD so will need a little social support to maxmisie what could potentially turn into a real talent.

WRT to mortgage thing it should ahve been done via tax code; a limited period of support but you repay it when back in work via your tax code, or have to consider selling up after say a year.