The Universal Credit

[Xenia]

Well done Iain Duncan-Smith.

1. Anyone in work will be better off than anyone not.
2. More benefits can be retained despite starting work
3. Housing benefit, income support incapacity benefit of dozens of other payments all scrapped and replaced with one simple universal credit.

This is reported in the Times. No treasury comment.

Very good news.

Xenia - working at a loss is fine if there's 2 of you.

It's not really practical (as I'm sure you know as a single parent yourself) to have a household income that is less than you need to actually live

And I'm not sure working for a loss would be that great for mental health issues

Riven I think Xenia means that if you're in a couple and one of your goes out and earns less than the childcare costs with long term prospects in mind it can be done (so long obviously as the other wage already covers the bills).

Of course. But I think the plan is that there would be some kind of big work scheme/work fare where if they couldn't find jobs then they would be put to work. There are always things we could have done and people tend to have more self respect when they work for their benefits rather than just having a hand out.

My piont on working at a loss was I or my children's father worked at a loss (just) for I think the first year and I suppose second year there was £1k over on the wage over the childcare but I was sure I would earn more in future so it was worth doing that and we'd only ever attribute half the childcare to each of us as we weren't in a sexist marriage anyway. If no matter what you did you'd never earn more than the minimum wage that's different and you were sure that would be so that there was no chance of promotion even nor setting up your own business.

so employers are even more reluctant to hire staff as they can get cheap labour from the benefits claimants???

Yes but you can't work at a loss for a year or more if your entire household income is working at a loss (such as a single parent family). It's just not practical - the landlord, banks, and utility companies generall get a bit narky after one or two missed payments.

The going halfs on the childcare only works if the main income earners income has money left over after the bills are paid. Otherwise there'll be no money to go halfs on.

The main idea behind this is to make young people look at the dole option and think crickey that looks like hard work having a job and bringing up a baby and there is no advantage to me having a baby over getting even a minimum wage job, so I'll wait until I am in a position to afford that baby.
We have another sort of relation, my cousins half sister, complete fcuk up at school had support workers coming out of her ears, 1 to 1's still managed to leave school with nothing, that's almost an achievement in itself these days. Has dossed around for a few years not working or claiming but has now miraculously got pregnant. I know the usual mumsnet line is it's 30 somethings who get divorced who make up the majority of single parents but you know what in RL it's 50/50 in my experience so if we reduce the first group then there will be more to go around in the 2nd group.

I only know one single parent in her teens/early 20's - and her DP (they'd been together 4yrs) was working and going to support her before he fucked off with another girl.

In my experience in RL it's late 20's early 30's (the single parents0 - one was in her late 40's.

And you really think that they'd give more to the 2nd group if they reduce the number in the first?????

As I said that's what I expect most people to say but it isn't my experience at all, usually 50/50.
There is only a certain amount "they" are prepared to give out isn't there so when that limit is reached they start cutting, we've all seen that in the past two years.
It would take longer to reach that threshold if they were less people claiming full stop.
If you're disabled or caring then you must claim, if you're a lazy bugger who thinks pushing a pram around the local shopping centre with a fag hanging out your mouth is a career move then i'd rather not support you thanks very much.

well - I do walk around with a buggy (well I did - DS3 is mostly out of it now) with a fag hanigng out of my mouth

I sure as hell did yesterday (with the buggy) when I was running out of time to sort my printer so that the congregation would have their weekly newsletter this morning )

I think as Riv and I have pointed out, the thing WRT to carers isn;t that they wiull have a right to long term claims etc-

it's that at this moment, you can get carer's regardless of the whole family income. It is emans tested on your income alone, so a significant number of carers will cease to qualify if they are palced on a universal benefit that works on a per family basis.

Now, relaity on MN is that naturally most of us carers care for our kids and we don;t give up on them.... but the wider carers picture does not reflect that. It is people caring for friewnds, neighbours, parents they quite possibly never actually liked. And they will hand the burden of care to social services if it emrans they no longer receive an income, and that will cost the state a small fortune.

I can think opf once case where that would happen immediately, someone caring for their Dad they didn;t even speak to for thirty years before he got elderly, absolutely resents it and looking for an excuse to give the care over.

Xenia what do you market?

(I don't want to be identified but stuff like courses and newsletters and other things)

' "I believe that is the case, [it will be in within a year] but this is going to take a long time to bring this whole change in, because you are migrating people off a whole range of benefits and tax credits ... on to one single universal credit system."'

So it does look like it is tax credits then? (from The Guardian, DC quote)

Seems likely that child benefit will be emans tested and also capped at 16; my aprents would ahve said I couldn't do my A-Levels if that ahd been the case, they couldn;t afford to keep me at home (no EMA back in my day- will there be after this?)

riven
'Disability living allowance would remain separate from "universal credit", with the new system allowing carers to take part-time or short-term work without losing their benefits, said ministers.'

its time to worry

DLA is paid regardless of income
Carers dont get DLA
Carers in Income support dont get Carers Allowance
Carers not on income support are only allowed to earn £90 per week before losing the £53 a week Carers Allowance

but mostly DLA IS IRRELEVENT TO WORK

Can you explain this to me and why it's time to worry - I don't understand - the way I see it is that carers and disabled people who can't work will get more money as we will be saving money on benefits for people out of work and by saving money on the administration of all these different kinds of benefits.

"I think what you're assuming in your calculations is that the single payment applies for a lifetime at the same level, regardless of income."

Well some people on here have been advocating such a Universal Benefit system where everyone regardless of situation would get £10k tax free. I was responding to that and just scratching some figures together that suggest that such a system would be impossible.

I read the front page of the times earlier when out - it really didn't say much in over a half a page:

child benifit would most probably stop at 16 years instead of 18 years
child benifit would be means tested

the money saved from both the above - would equal 3 billion and that 3 billion is what it will cost to change the benifits system to enable the goveremtn to save 198 billion

that the goveremtn owuld make it far harder for anyone not to work and they would base it ont he american system whereby if you refuse a job then you will be made to work and they will get pribvate companies to get you it for work and come to your house and get you up in the mornings

this was mostly what the article was about

yet nothing was really for sure

this is of course what I can remeber of the article over 3 hours ago and what stcuk in my mind was nothing is finalised and they are make up waffle as much as possible as they are not sure of the end product

I think she menas that the Government are seeming to think DLA is paid to carers; it is not. Neither is it a living benefit as such- imo the past George Osborne has referred to DLA as a barrier to work: in fact, it's often paid in ADDITION to work as it is intended to cover the extra costs of disability, people not in work would claim different benefits on top.

Also, the idea that there would be mroe to go round is nioce but distinctly wrong. they want to save money, they need to know, we all know that. Extra cash won;tcome to us but to the deficit. That is relaity.

A final point; if a system says you will always be better off in work then that emans you will always be worse off not working. Even if it's not your choice. Sadly we don;t get lower living costs etc than everyone else so a universal system paying X for Y will actually hit us more atm for example a carer on IS gets to keep I believe a little of that CA as a bonus for being a carer.

That would all be defunct.

We would be as poor as the next feckless bastard.

Ta DC.

Another question: if it's a universal system of X does that eman we get the same amount with 4 kids (yes yes, all conceived whilst in possession of FT work etc) as someone with none or one? Becuase if so ds1 is going on ebay.

SanctiMoanyArse Unless things change school leaving age is set to become 17 in 2013 and 18 in 2015 regardless of child benefit being removed at 16.

Can't help myself here, but have a huge bee in my bonnet when people talk about single parents in an unkindly manner. So, if this helps, in reality, here are the true FACTS about single parents...

?Single parents are predominantly women, although 8 per cent of single parents are fathers.

?In 1998 24 per cent of families with children were were single parent families.
?In 2007 23 per cent of families with children were single parent families. So, the figures have barely changed at all since Labour came to power [I mean; since the Labour party encouraged people to be single parents with all thier money sacks full of benefits ]!

Very few single parents are ?unmarried teenagers-Just 2 per cent of single parents are teenagers.

The median age for a single parent is 36.9

?The majority of single parents had their children within marriage.

?Half (50 per cent) of children in single parent families are poor, compared to 25 per cent of children in couple families.

?Only two-fifths of single parents receive maintenance from their child?s other parent.

?The median weekly income for working single parent families is £404.52, compared with £618.44 for couple families with one worker...go figure!

Single parents do work too!
?The employment rate for single parents varies depending on the age of their youngest child. Once children are 12 or over, single parents employment rate is similar to, or higher than, the employment rate for mothers in couples ...go girl !! (71 per cent of single parents whose child is 12-15 are in work).

?Where single parents are not working, this is often because there are health issues that make work difficult: 36 per cent of unemployed single parents have a disability or longstanding illness and 30 per cent have a child with a disability.

Hope that helps to clear things up? I can now draw breath!

OK MumInBeds so what happens then?

Is it going to be that children have to take a job for teh last two years of schoolw hilst doing exams and whatever otehr bits they need to get a decent uni place (and if anyone thinks extras aren't essential, they need to speak to medical admissions peeps)

DS1's DLA claim ends at 16 as the criteria changes then; anyone wanna hire a violent, aggressicve, non compliant 16 year old for part time work? No? Surprise.

I'm not saying it is a good thing (in relation to all this), just that the wheels are in motion for this. SanctiMoanyArse

how can they save 198 billion when the entire budget for the DWP, Tax credits and child benefit comes to less than that????

The biggest portion of the HMRC's and DWP's budget is state penions.........

I get that MIB but I am firmly not of the shut up nd accept your life falling apart ilk.