I was surprised to read this today

[scaryteacher]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8015743/British-Isles-worst-place-to-live-in-Europe.html.

I live in Belgium and find it shockingly expensive. The UK is much cheaper for food, books, clothes, electronics and car tax, so I think the authors of this have never done a weekly shop here.

I'm with you, scaryteacher. I live in Greece, and about the only thing the article has got right is that the UK gets less sunshine. Other than that, it is streets ahead on public services, VAT here is now 23%, books, clothes, food are so much cheaper in the UK. Rent might be cheaper here, but as a proportion of average income it is actually more expensive. The list goes on.

The authors of the article might have visited France and Ireland and possibly Germany, and are extrapolating to apply it to the whole of Europe, it seems to me.

I wouldn't say that Riven. Dh works at a large well known international HQ in Brussels, which it is very difficult to get to by public transport (although there may well be reasons for that).

Compared to rural Cornwall it's good, but then, so is the bus service from a market town 10 minutes away in the car.

We lived in Belgium for 18 months and I think I agree with most of the things they say in the article. My DH swapped commuting to London to commuting in Brussels - and it was so much easier. Instead of leaving the house at 6am every day he could leave at 8am and be back in time for dinner. Food was more expensive but far better choice and quality.

We now live in New Zealand and I would no move back to the UK unless we had no choice.

I agree - my shopping bill is quite scary now frankly! In fact depending on what you buy, it can be cheaper to go to Stonemanor and buy imported UK food (especially frozen stuff) and toiletries.

When I was back in UK earlier in the year I was astounded at the bargains on offer in Sainsburys and all the 2 for 1 offers (which you never see in Belgium). When people talk on MN of feeding their family on £50 a week or less, I am agog!

Riven - Europe is very large. It's quite a sweeping statement to say 'Europe has better transport'. Greece and Italy I have found to be far inferior to the UK in terms of transport. I wasn't too impressed with Portugal either.

Portofino - me too. I'd have to eat lentils every day to feed my family on such a small amount!

As far as Greece goes alexpolismum is right the uk is far cheaper! If you factor in the fact that UK has good state education, health care, social support etc life in the uk has to be better overall. This country is becoming a nightmare to live in because salaries are staying very low whilst everything else is getting more and more expensive.

The sun doesn't make up for all that! And living in a hot country is not as enjoyable as it seems from your holiday hotel! Ironing in temps of over 33 c all summer is no fun believe me. likewise cooking , housework etc.

< Hi alexpolismum from Pollylogos in Athens! >

I'm in Peristeri (west, working class Athens)I used to be in Agios Stefanos though for many years.

Why do I iron??? habit I suppose. It's ok though I position the ironing board right where the aircon hits me and keeps me cool, put on a favourite dvd and iron away!!!)

den variesai, PollyLogos . I used to spend a lot of time in Peristeri, funnily enough, as a good friend of mine lives there.

You are so right about the social support. You can't live on unemployment benefit in Greece, it's nothing like in the UK. It's funny, though. People in the UK often talk about 'Europe' as though it were somewhere else that the UK was not a part of, and people in Greece do exactly the same thing. They say 'In Europe..' as though Greece were part of Asia or something. I remember people doing this in Italy too. I'm starting to wonder where Europe is exactly!

Lavender - I assume he didn't go on the Ring then? If it's bad then it can take dh 90 minutes to get from Evere to Junction 1 in the evenings, and it can be appalling in the mornings as well if you don't hit it at the right times.

'Food was more expensive but far better choice and quality.' Agree with the former on price; totally disagree with the latter. What I wouldn't give for Sainsbury's or Waitrose here, but we do at last have some stuff from the latter.

As for choice, there isn't even a standard range in Carrefour - I can't get fresh cream in Waterloo or Kraainem, but I can in Tervuren. Crazy. The thing that Belgium does far better than UK is bread and patisserie. Can't fault them there, and coffee, beer and chocolate as well.

Absolutely, and the fruit is obtained from the cherry beer and the patisserie!

It is a serious point though. I can easily spend 100 euros without thinking in the supermarket just on fruit/veg/bread and meat and without really very much to show for it. I have to try to do that in Sainsbury's. I was amazed at the offers when I was back in the summer...I stocked up on toiletries (dh has more underarm than he knows what to do with), dishwasher tablets, peanut butter, marmite, teabags, squash, vanish, dishwasher cleaner, baked beans, dried fruit, maple syrup etc as it is so much cheaper.

People in the UK certainly work longer hours and have less holidays than most other Europeans.

Scaryteacher - no he was lucky he just used to hop on the metro. I used to love travelling around on the trams - I really miss them!But I do agree the Ring used to scare the hell out of me. It must be the most dangerous road in Europe.

I do think that people in the UK "live to work" as the article said. Far more than people in France for example do. We found it very difficult to have any sort of family life as we both had to work to afford the mortgage and lifes essentials. We constantly seemed to be battling to stay ahead of all the bills and keep our head above water but with no time for fun.

My parents live in France where people seem to have their priorities right. Life is not just about work and family is far more important and work is something you do just between the hours of 9 and 5 (with a two hour lunch break!).

OOh who's your friend alexpolismum? Is she english? I know quite a few english girls here in Peristeri and I know of even more!!

Mingg I certainly don't want to get into an argument and I can only speak personally about UK and Greece but I'm not sure you're right there. I think because of the stricter laws that working hours are adhered to in UK over here exploitation is rife. Couple that with extremely low salaries, poor conditions and virtually no legal backup eg no disciplinary procedures - you can be made redundant for the slightest reason. There are laws in place but they are completely ignored and nobody fights this because it will involve long, expensive drawn out court cases (we are talking years)

So overall I can't agree that Britain is the worst place in Europe to live and work.

Scaryteacher - another one here who stocks up on all sorts in the UK I actually take an extra empty suitcase with me to accomodate all our buys!! Don't get me going on the difference in price of PG tips!!!

hehe - a comic my sister saw once used the line ' The Germans don't have a word for delay' only to have 'Verspatung!!!' yelled by numerous voices. Sorry no umlaut.

I did one of those Interrail thingys. France was good. The Netherlands too. Germany, Czech republic, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece were crap (took the trans-Balkan sleeper - mile after mile of blue Danube at a snails pace.) One train we were on in Germany caught fire causing a three hour delay.

Also, France & Germny my have better working conditions, but they also have had very high unemployment.

I am not talking about working conditions Polly but working hours and just because UK is meant to adhere to the European Working Time Directive does not mean that people only work up to 48 hours/week. Most people I know work way more that that, have 25 days holiday/year and carry on working while on holiday - in general I think that this is not the case for most other Europeans.

Well, like I said, I can only talk about Greece and UK. Greece is definitely worse than UK.

Polly - it's a Greek friend.

Mingg - People in other European countries do not always adhere to the European Working Time Directive either. Britain is by no means alone in this. Where I used to work in Athens, on paper we did 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. In reality, we were expected to do far more than that, with no extra pay, and I rarely got a whole weekend off. 10 hour shifts were not unusual. As Polly says, there was no point making a legal challenge to this. At least the law tends to be better applied in the UK, and when it isn't, people can do something about it, and get Legal Aid to take cases to court.

You and Polly are just comparing UK and Greece whereas I am saying that people in the UK in general work longer hours than most Europeans. I don't know what the working hours in Greece are but for example French have 35 hour working week (can now be extended). According to 2007 EU study, if I remember correctly, on average only Romanians and Bulgarians worked longer ours than UK employees.

Just done shopping, mainly fruit/veg, milk, butter, cheese, 13 euros on meat, packed lunch stuff, bread, pasta and it was 110 euros. Ouch, and not much to show for it.