Polly Toynbee and Religion

[WinkyWinkola]

In the "wanky" Guardian but it's interesting reading:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/sep/14/sex-death-poisoned-heart-religion

"Discussion was divided into a first debate on whether Catholicism was over-obsessed with sex"

It's very uneven about it if it is.

Catholics in the UK, for example, use birth control and the Church doesn't seem to make a big deal about that. Even Cherie Blair made some very high profile comments about it.

And that's birth control here for relatively petty social reasons such as just not wanting more children or not having room to fit another child seat in the back of the car.

Yet the Church doesn't make a big deal about it and certainly doesn't seem set to tackle this great sin.

However in Africa where people want to use condoms to avoid death the Church gets all high and mighty and makes a big noise about it. Catholic Schools here aren't even allowed to support comic relief because of it. Those same schools stuffed full of families and staff with the "right" number of children and with parents not dying of some nasty and preventable disease.

Surely using condoms to avoid buying a bigger car is worse than using them to avoid contracting a fatal disease and dying?

Apparently not.

However....

"Wherever male cultural leaders hold absolute and unscrutinised power, women and children will be abused."

.... is just sexist spiteful nonsense that damages the credibility of the article.

Wherever any leader, male or female, holds that level of power there will be trouble and people will be abused.

"Wherever male cultural leaders hold absolute and unscrutinised power, women and children will be abused."

.... is just sexist spiteful nonsense that damages the credibility of the article.

The vast sweep of human history would tend to prove you wrong there.

"The vast sweep of human history would tend to prove you wrong there."

That's just because of the many sexist organisations that have placed primarily men into positions of power.

Look at the abuses that female Nazi prison guards were capable of inflicting upon their prisoners.

Look at the prison in Iraq where one of the main culprits for abuse was a woman.

"Wherever cultural leaders hold absolute and unscrutinised power, women and children will be abused."

Is a better and more accurate statement.

Let's face it it wouldn't be fair to make sweeping comments about the nature of female PMs when women haven't had a fair chance to get at the position.

Who created the "sexist organisations"?

'Who created the "sexist organisations"?'

Well, God, allegedly.

And moving on....

My point is just that anyone, male of female, is capable of abusing their position it's just that historically they've had more of a chance of doing so.

Since and including WW2 women have shown that men are not alone in what they're capable of.

So for Polly Toynbee to make it out to be a male thing, rather than a people thing, is just sexist and leaves an obvious opening for her detractors to rip her otherwise pretty decent set of arguments to pieces.

So in our (relatively) equal sociey, why is it mainly men committing crimes of violence?

I'm not sure you can use female Nazi prison camp guards as an example: those were a very specific, very abnormal set of circumstances, and the guards were not in power per se: there was always someone for them to answer to.

The fact is that it's hard to find an example of women in power. Easy to find example ofter example of women being kept down by male-conceived, male-promulgated and male-run institutions, in general and specific ways. Sorry but it is!

Don't forget the lone Iraqi prison guard.

"So in our (relatively) equal sociey, why is it mainly men committing crimes of violence?"

Women are catching up, over the last decade female convictions for murder have doubled.

"those were a very specific, very abnormal set of circumstances, and the guards were not in power per se: there was always someone for them to answer to."

Everyone in the Catholic Church bar the Pope has someone on this world to answer to. So the situations are somewhat similar.

All I'm trying to argue is that Polly is trying to attack the sexism of the Church (hear hear!) but then drops in a sexist clanger of her own.

People abuse positions of power and authority, not just men, not just women, people.

Not only is it sad to see sexism argued against with sexism it also leaves a door open for people to attack her.

She's got some good points and she didn't need to make that silly statement.

ann widdicombes piece

Go Polly! I hope there are going to be some dignified, peaceful protests against this disgusting old woo-peddler, nonce-protecter and woman-hater when he gets here.

I have to say, whenever I read Polly Toynbee, it often goes like this in my head:

yes...quite agree...well said...you tell 'em...ooh yes...WTfuckingF???....well yes...hmmm....

It's like she's 70% from exactly the right place and then gets far too reactionary for me.

Disclaimer: haven't read about the Pope coming - nothing's going to make it more, or less, ok in my mind.

She's good on politics (some cracking pieces during the election and the direness (IMO) of what has come after. But as President of the British Humanist Assoc, she's ridiculously rude and biased, and sometimes woefully ignorant, about religion.