Plans to catch benefit cheats

[boiledegg1]

Guardian article

I'm all for tackling benefit fraud but is this the right way?

There's a lively thread on this in IABU... I struggled with the idea at first, I'll admit. However, I think the general plan is that credit agencies, having access to spending patterns, can flag up if someone's financial activities are inconsistent with their stated status and this might lead to closer inspection. Logically, large scale fraud would show up more than small scale dodges. Someone claiming to earn £15k so they get tax credits might struggle to explain why they spend £2000 a month on their credit card. Cash in hand moonlighting, however, isn't going to show up.

I think it was the previous government that set this particular idea off and running.... anything that reduces the bill has to be a good thing.

It's not a good idea. Your first instincts were better.

Where's the other thread, perhaps I'm being dense but I couldn't see it?

The other thread had rather gone off on a tangent down the 'people on benefits don't need flat screen TV' route and 'I'm a genuine benefit claimant, it's everyone else that's fiddling the system'....

I think it's a good idea. However, agree that anyone with half a brain will move to a cash and carry lifestyle. I guess I would rate the system on what it's likely to cost to implement weighed agains how much it will save us in catching cheats. And, of course, there is value in showing potential benefit cheats that getting caught is not a risk worth taking.

And, of course, I want to clarify that when I say "benefit cheats" I am talking about people who are lying and cheating the system, and not people receiving benefits in general.

But what I'm unsure of is that they want to prosecute in each case. Where are they going to send them if found guilty given the £2billion cut in the judicial services? Surely not a custodial sentence as there's going to be a cut in the prison population.

I have no idea, but I guess someone who behaves as a criminal deserves to be treated as a criminal.

I guess I would rate the system on what it's likely to cost to implement weighed agains how much it will save us in catching cheats

They will only be paid commission - the goverment are outsourcing the work and the work will be paid on results - so if they save the goverment 5billion - they will get a %

It's fine as long as they study everyone's spending patterns because those not on benefits might be fiddling their tax or committing other crimes.

For example it might show up that ministers and executives of companies were taking bribes.

I think a lot of working people would be upset to think it was being done to them, but if it's not ok to spy on everyone from queen to prime minister to dustmen then it's not ok to spy on anyone at all.

Well onagar, Child Benefit is a benefit so virtually all parents could be checked up on under this, not the queen but probably the PM.

I think if someone is convicted of benefit fraud, they should forfeit their right to claiming any benefits again in the future. That would solve the punishment problem and may be a more effective deterrent.

MumInBeds, good point though I think CB isn't means tested so it probably doesn't apply to that.

maxpower, I know how you feel, but that would be in effect sentencing them to death by starvation (and their kids too if they had any)

What worries me, greatly, is their plans to allow private companies to "bounty hunt" - i.e. trawl all the information looking for irregularities, and get paid money where they can chuck people off benefits. Where will the burden of proof lie?

As an example, I have rented out the flat I own to a friend, and have been staying at my parents while we house hunt in a new town. I haven't bothered changing all my ID over to my parents house as we're only here for a few months and it just seemed like too much hassle. Meanwhile my friend lost his job and is now claiming housing benefit, and single persons allowance on the council tax. In reality everything is above board. He is living there alone. But if you look at the paper trail it would appear that we are all living in the same 1 bed flat and my friend is claiming fraudulently for the whole flat. This is the kind of thing a bounty-hunting private company could come up with. I will be very angry indeed if I have to waste (probably lots of) time explaining myself, and at least one of us will be in dire straights if they decide the claim was fraudulent.

I suspect there are lots of other people in similar grey areas who will be seriously inconvenienced by this.

That's just a personal bugbear though. Much more than that it saddens me to see the Tories up to their old tricks, so quicky after election - attacking the vulnerable, getting us all pointing the finger at each other while protecting the interests of the rich.

Tony Benn said something good about this recently, I'll see if I can find it.

Tony Benn on the cuts, of which this is a part.

"The government claims the cuts are unavoidable because the welfarestate has been too generous. This is nonsense. Ordinary people are being forced to pay for the bankers' profligacy,"

"The £11bn welfare cuts, rise in VAT to 20%, and 25% reductions across government departments target the most vulnerable ? disabled people, single parents, those on housing benefit, black and other ethnic minority communities, students, migrant workers, LGBT people and pensioners.

"Women are expected to bear 75% of the burden. The poorest will be hit six times harder than the richest. Internal Treasury documents estimate 1.3m job losses in public and private sectors...

"An alternative budget would place the banks under democratic control and raise revenue by increasing tax for the rich, plugging tax loopholes, withdrawing troops from Afghanistan, abolishing the nuclear 'deterrent' by cancelling the Trident replacement."

"This government of millionaires says 'we're all in it together' and 'there is no alternative'. But, for the wealthy, corporation tax is being cut, the bank levy is a pittance, and top salaries and bonuses have already been restored to pre-crash levels."

From here

I am pretty sure Tony Benn does not condone defrauding the state.

You're not getting it.

No one is condoning defrauding the state.

Benefit fraud is responsible for a tiny amount as compared to the vast amounts of fraud carried out by big business. If they were really concerned about saving us money this would be more of an issue.

What about Walkers Crisps as just one of many, many examples? While the production remains here, they've moved their head quarters out of the UK, this saving themselves millions in tax. How is this any different from someone working here but pretending they don't? Oh, I'll tell you how. 1. The money involved is massive in comparison to any benefit cheat. 2 the government aren't doing anything about it

Who got us into this situation? Benefit cheats or banks? Umm. I think it was the banks. But their employees are still getting bonuses and none of the politicians have the guts to really tackle the issue.

The whole benefit fraud thing is a massive red herring. It's a vote winner, the tabloids love it and it gets people all stirred up. But they way it's being tackled also (very deliberately IMO) will create a culture of fear and paranoia. It's classic divide and rule. If you don't know what it is, please look it up. You will see much more of it under this government.

The cuts the Tories are making are ideological.

If you look at what the economists and think tanks are saying, we don't need to make such deep cuts. In fact it will harm the economy. In reality, that means less money in your pocket, people losing their jobs and homes, more children growing up in poverty and all the social problems that comes with it.

But the Tories have an ideological agenda, and they are plowing ahead with it. They want smaller government, a power shift to private hands, to see the end of the NHS. That's what they believe in.

And if we spend our time running around in circles getting hysterical about who's got a TV they probably can't afford, rather then looking at the bigger picture, then the government can get on with destroying the welfare state in peace.

What you are talking about is not illegal.

Not a red herring at all. If you condone fraud go ahead and say it. I don't condone tax evasion or benefit fraud. It is you seeking to create a red herring. Two wrongs don't make a right. Save your passion for people in need who are not getting what they deserve. There are many of them. Enough for me not to feel sorry for fraudsters.

Stopping benefit fraud equals destroying the welfare state?

Interesting conflation.

No, shopping benefit fraud does not equal destroying the welfare state

Do you understand the concept divide and rule?

Er. Yes. Meaningless here.

Unless ..shock.. you believe benefit claimant who are not ftsudsyers dhould have solidarity with those who arcan you possibly mean that?

Ahem. Fraudsters. And if you can read the rest you can have an nvq in phone posting.

i think that the tories ideology as mentioned by lowrib has permeated our culture so much that benefit claimant = fraudster even though the two are quite different.

its the constant demonisation of benefit claimants. these leeches sucking the life out of society and bankrupting the country.

this ofcourse is nonsense.

tony benn is pointing out that actually - the fuck ups are the bankers, but they dont get punished. in fact they get rewarded.

I do not condone fraud.

I am uncomfortable about the way in which the government are failing to tackle the pressing issues of our time and are instead focussing on things like benefits cheats.

I would assume that the benefits service seek to minimise fraud, and that they will get more efficient at doing this as time goes by. This is as things should be.

So why is it even an issue?

Here's another quote (sorry I'm too tired to paraphrase)

"The reality is that benefit fraud ? while not morally commendable ? is far, far less prevalent than I would have estimated, and much, much lower than anybody would reasonably expect, especially given the blanket media coverage of those who are caught out.

In cash terms, it amounts to around £1bn ... Even so, it is little more than small change in comparison with the £850bn spent on the bank bailout." Quote from here

We are in dire financial straits. This was caused by the banks. But instead of actually doing something about the real issue, the government are encouraging us to think that our current scarceness of resources was caused by people such as benefit cheats.

I mention divide and rule, because if we all blame each other for the problems we face, then we're not looking at the bigger picture.

I'm going to leave this thread for now because I'm getting much too tired to string a sentence together, but I'll be back when I can. Do you understand at all what I'm saying about the bigger picture? You don't need to condone benefit cheating to have a problem with the way the government is dealing with it.