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Human rights

Abortion law challenge - 24 weeks limit for Down's syndrome

184 replies

SecretThermalsAreTheBest · 06/05/2021 12:27

Just read that there's a high court challenge to try and change the clause that currently allows abortion to be carried out after 24 weeks, up until birth when the foetus/baby has Down's Syndrome or another severe disability.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-56982646

The campaign would bring the abortion limit for all babies with non-fatal severe disabilities to the same 24 week time limit.

Just interested to know what people think about this?

OP posts:
DogsAndGin · 27/07/2022 16:57

LadyCampanulaTottington · 27/07/2022 15:01

I am 100% against forced birth of any kind.

Of any kind - so you think it’s okay to abort a healthy foetus up to 40 weeks gestation?

hatedbythedailymail22 · 27/07/2022 16:58

Thornethorn · 27/07/2022 15:55

I'm in favour of the law changing to reflect the value of a DS baby's life. The same rules should apply to them.

We're talking about foetuses, not babies. Terminology matters.

And when we are talking about babies, it would be a person/baby with DS, not a DS baby.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/07/2022 17:05

so you think it’s okay to abort a healthy foetus up to 40 weeks gestation?

No, so I wouldn't abort my 40 week fetus. And I don't believe any woman in her right mind would. So it's the strawiest of straw men.

Wouldloveanother · 27/07/2022 17:08

I’m against this. I’m not in favour of any further restrictions on abortions or the bodily autonomy of women. I don’t think a world that treats disabled people with respect and care and value, is at all at odds with a world that enables women to choose whether they want to raise a disabled child or not.

fantasmasgoria1 · 27/07/2022 17:14

I have work with adults with a learning disability, some clients had down syndrome. They had very challenging behaviour and certainly were only lovely 40% of the time. But (only my experience) people with down syndrome who live with family or more independently are what people deem the lovely ones. The people with much more challenging behaviours tend to go into residential support services.

stuntbubbles · 27/07/2022 17:15

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/07/2022 17:05

so you think it’s okay to abort a healthy foetus up to 40 weeks gestation?

No, so I wouldn't abort my 40 week fetus. And I don't believe any woman in her right mind would. So it's the strawiest of straw men.

Exactly. As early as possible, as late as necessary, without invented “designed to inflame” scenarios coming into it.

UK statistics: Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 236 such abortions in 2020.

Women are not cutting a merry swathe in their multitudes to the clinic at 40 weeks.

Paslaptis · 27/07/2022 17:22

If there's a legitimate case for this, the change should be proposed, debated on the record, amended if necessary, and voted into law (or not) via Parliament. This happened in 1990, when the ordinary access limit was reduced from 28 to 24 weeks, mainly based on evidence that advancing technology reduced the time in which a foetus would typically be viable. This type of change should not be introduced via the courts; that way lies the madness (and misogyny) we've seen recently in Poland and the USA.

BSQ44 · 27/07/2022 17:32

My DS was diagnosed with a severe cardiac abnormality at the 20 week scan. Which wasn’t actually done at 20 weeks on the dot. It looked potentially surgically treatable but the pattern was associated with various genetic diagnoses including Downs, Edwards and Patau’s and also syndromes that cause severe psychological distress and schizophrenia such as DiGeorge’s. I then had an amniocentesis. I didn’t get the results back until 23+6. This was an IVF pregnancy with genetic testing to avoid the baby having the condition my son already has.

I elected to continue the pregnancy. I had a further scan at 32 weeks - it was now beginning to seem less likely they could achieve the really good surgical repair and may need to consider a series of many surgeries which might buy some years but would eventually fail. I was offered termination again, came back to see cardiologist again to rediscuss all the information as it had been so much to take in. I felt completely paralysed and unable to make a decision. They could offer me a termination at 33+5. It was utterly heartbreaking and there was a lot of uncertainty about the information I was given because they simply just couldn’t know.

We have no local family and all of the surgical treatment and hospital stays would need to take place in a hospital in a different city.

These situations are vanishingly rare and exceedingly painful. If you look at the ONS from 2020 there were something like 200,000 terminations and only 280 were above even 21 weeks. Nobody is making that decision lightly and frivolously. Support for being able to physically care for these children is variable and some of the pain they may ensure may be absolutely enormous.

I didn’t have the termination but I am so very very grateful that I live somewhere where there are options and I wasn’t judged.

When I was reading about it during the decision making process I read many accounts from women who live in the US, some of whom had babies that weren’t even going to survive, who to access termination were having to fly out of area to clinics surrounded by crazy high security with angry protesters outside, costing them easily $15,000 dollars. Making this completely inaccessible to poorer women who would also be the least well equipped to be able to care for a seriously ill child, particularly in the US where they quite possibly couldn’t even access the healthcare. And for all of those women this seemed out of this world cruel when they were already in a world of pure pain and torture.

It’s not happening with any regularity, it’s always complicated, painful and horrible and I really don’t think there’s a place for using these rare cases for generalised moral and political debate. Although I didn’t have the abortion I now feel even more strongly that the law should remain as it is.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 27/07/2022 17:41

Hopelessromatic · 27/07/2022 15:45

Well just giving people a view on how Down Syndrome people are lovely and maybe not consider abortion especially at 24 weeks . That just my opinion, every has their own opinion and I'm allowed mine

It's not your business if another woman chooses to abort a baby with DS. Your sister may well be lovely but don't pretend thats the case with all DS individuals. Many can be be very challenging and have other medical issues.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/07/2022 17:43

crwnhgow · 27/07/2022 15:24

This thread is a year old and the case was thankfully lost, although I think its going to appeal.

I doubt the rapid pro-life fundamentalist groups supporting this care about the rights of disabled people.

They lost but they were given leave to appeal on one ground.

The appeal hearing was on 13/07/2022 and they are now waiting for that judgment. I saw on HC's twitter that it's likely to be October at the earliest.

Really long thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4289660-Late-term-abortion-high-court

Short thread about related activities of the claimants and associated people:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4539125-more-institutional-capture-pro-lifers-this-time

IncompleteSenten · 27/07/2022 17:48

DogsAndGin · 27/07/2022 16:57

Of any kind - so you think it’s okay to abort a healthy foetus up to 40 weeks gestation?

Yes. Absolutely.

I am pro choice. Not pro choice but. Not pro choice if. Not pro choice when.

Just pro choice.

I believe in a woman's right to total control of her body.

Would I personally choose that option? No. Should my preference be forced on other women? Also no.

I assume you have examples of healthy 40 week pregnancies being terminated to share?

LangClegsInSpace · 27/07/2022 17:51

Also relevant are some old discussions on here about the 'Don't Screen Us Out' campaign. I think it was 2016 after Sally Phillips did a guest blog (tried searching but can't get anything useful from the new search tool).

It's all the same people.

Maybeebebe · 27/07/2022 17:55

IncompleteSenten · 27/07/2022 17:48

Yes. Absolutely.

I am pro choice. Not pro choice but. Not pro choice if. Not pro choice when.

Just pro choice.

I believe in a woman's right to total control of her body.

Would I personally choose that option? No. Should my preference be forced on other women? Also no.

I assume you have examples of healthy 40 week pregnancies being terminated to share?

I am pro choice. Not pro choice but. Not pro choice if. Not pro choice when.

Just pro choice.

These words need to be repeated

BiscuitLover3678 · 27/07/2022 17:59

on posts on here you always get people saying they think abortion for any reason up until birth is ok. Yet they would want a woman jailed for neglecting a one day old baby. They don’t seem to realise that the one day old baby may in many cases be younger than babies who are aborted up until birth. My point is this shouldn’t be an ‘easy’ thing.

However I think it should be kept between women and doctor like is already discussed.

BiscuitLover3678 · 27/07/2022 18:01

as in a baby who is aborted at 30 weeks pregnant is obviously older than a newborn baby born at 28 weeks and yet the newborn somehow has more rights. Sorry I know this is obvious stuff but I find it upsetting how some people talk about it. If you can care about a women or girl then don’t pretend it’s nothing for the baby either.

BiscuitLover3678 · 27/07/2022 18:02

Maybeebebe · 27/07/2022 17:55

I am pro choice. Not pro choice but. Not pro choice if. Not pro choice when.

Just pro choice.

These words need to be repeated

I don’t understand the need for such black and white thinking. Life isn’t black and white. Ever, tbh.

IncompleteSenten · 27/07/2022 18:06

What on earth makes you think we don't realise that?

We know how long gestation is. We can count. We know that much wanted babies can be helped if delivered too early. These are not difficult things to understand. A baby is inside the mother and then it is born. It's not rocket science.

You think pro choice people would not be pro choice if we understood that babies get born and have rights from that point?

Inside the body = woman's choice.

Outside the body (not including removal due to abortion) = living human with an independent set of rights.

Pro lifers always throw this manipulative oh poor baby could breathe on its own fully developed blah blah bullshit about but the reality is women just don't get to full term and think nah, I've changed my mind.

Pro lifers peddle that ridiculous scenario because they know the truth - that women access abortions as early as possible - doesn't pull at the heart strings.

pinkpip100 · 27/07/2022 18:08

Wouldloveanother · 27/07/2022 17:08

I’m against this. I’m not in favour of any further restrictions on abortions or the bodily autonomy of women. I don’t think a world that treats disabled people with respect and care and value, is at all at odds with a world that enables women to choose whether they want to raise a disabled child or not.

I have a 9 year old with ds, she is amazing and I would defend her right to equality, inclusion and respect to the hilt, but I completely agree with what @Wouldloveanother posted.
(I didn't always think like this - and initially posted on the one of previous threads linked above in support of the high court challenge - but responses on that thread made me reconsider and I now believe any reduction in women's bodily autonomy is a dangerous thing)

anderosonnmj · 27/07/2022 18:09

BiscuitLover3678 · 27/07/2022 18:01

as in a baby who is aborted at 30 weeks pregnant is obviously older than a newborn baby born at 28 weeks and yet the newborn somehow has more rights. Sorry I know this is obvious stuff but I find it upsetting how some people talk about it. If you can care about a women or girl then don’t pretend it’s nothing for the baby either.

Women are not aborting healthy 30-week-old babies/fetuses.

Wouldloveanother · 27/07/2022 18:11

Also what I struggle with is that a lot of the Instagram DS mums, had the screening tests themselves (obviously their babies slipped through this net) but now want to limit screening for other people. A few of the mums also (won’t name names) admitted having an amnio or NIPT with their next baby as they didn’t want to have another baby with Downs 🤨 there are women out there who got the diagnosis before birth and proceeded with the pregnancy regardless, I suppose their activism jars less because there’s a sincerity/dignity to what they’re saying. Not just ‘I didn’t have a choice, so now I want to limit yours’. I hope that doesn’t offend but given they’re campaigning to restrict my rights (and the rights of women everywhere) I hope I am entitled to critique it.

Thornethorn · 27/07/2022 18:40

I just don't see why women's rights need to be at odds with the idea that you don't, as a society, sanction or permit the killing of a baby with Downs Syndrome. And if it never happens anyway then there's no need for a law preventing it and it won't be an issue for anyone except the people with DS who would very much like to escape this degrading discrimination.

IncessantNameChanger · 27/07/2022 18:45

Hugasauras · 27/07/2022 15:08

Does the campaign also ask for proper funding for care for disabled children, respite for parents and much increased financial support for carers too?

Thought not.

As a parent of a disabled child, this.

If I found out personally I was going to have another severely disabled child knowing what I know now, I would be placing it into care which tbh might be worse than death for that child.

It's all fine and dandy for people with zero experience to pass these laws. They dont live with the reality of a broken care and education system

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 27/07/2022 19:05

Thornethorn · 27/07/2022 18:40

I just don't see why women's rights need to be at odds with the idea that you don't, as a society, sanction or permit the killing of a baby with Downs Syndrome. And if it never happens anyway then there's no need for a law preventing it and it won't be an issue for anyone except the people with DS who would very much like to escape this degrading discrimination.

Because women have the right to choose if they want to continue with a pregnancy if the foetus has DS. It's not for anyone else to decide that for the woman.

WinterMusings · 27/07/2022 19:25

grey12 · 27/07/2022 15:07

@PinkBump2022 makes a very good point!

Buy WHY on a thread that's a year old??

i think the law is fine as it is. I'm 'pro choice' to that degree, I'm not pro choice to 40 weeks, no.

stuntbubbles · 27/07/2022 19:29

BiscuitLover3678 · 27/07/2022 17:59

on posts on here you always get people saying they think abortion for any reason up until birth is ok. Yet they would want a woman jailed for neglecting a one day old baby. They don’t seem to realise that the one day old baby may in many cases be younger than babies who are aborted up until birth. My point is this shouldn’t be an ‘easy’ thing.

However I think it should be kept between women and doctor like is already discussed.

Who is out here asking for women who neglect one-day-old babies to be jailed? I think most people would be thinking: is the mother OK, is she in an abusive relationship, in what situation was she able to neglect a baby less than 24 hours old, is she in a physical state after birth to care for her child, where’s her support network, what support does she need, is postpartum psychosis an issue, was this a forced birth, why isn’t this hypothetical premature baby (from your next post) in intensive care, etc. Most of us would have many, many questions about this strawman scenario before we started shouting “throw away the key!”