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Housekeeping

Find cleaning advice from other Mumsnetters on our Housekeeping forum.

Original poster

Cleaner living in a tent

93 replies

newbie202020 · 21/04/2024 06:55

I'm pretty sure our cleaner is living in a tent and I feel really uncomfortable about it and I'm not completely sure why.

She was recommended through a friend and has been cleaning for us for about a year with no problems, cleans well, is reliable etc. We've also recommended her to neighbours who she also now cleans for and they too are happy with her services.

She isn't from the UK, and her English is a little limited but have gathered that her husband was seriously injured a few months ago at work and hasn't been able to work since. She has also mentioned moving house. We assume her husband was in some kind of cash in hand job so unlikely to be receiving workplace sick pay.

Our cleaner was unable to work this week due to something medical and sent us a photo to show this (we definitely didn't expect to/want to see a photo) and she was clearly in a tent, sitting on what appears to be some kind of office chair.

We have no reason not to trust her, although she doesn't have a key and we are usually home for the duration of her working hours, but I really feel for her if she is living in a tent as she cannot afford accommodation. We are in London and rents are very high. As her English is limited I can't raise this with her sensitively and anyway, I don't think it's really my place to. We pay her the going rate around here of £17 p/h.

I'm interested in hearing the views of others on this.

Thanks all

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 23/04/2024 03:49

yep, it's all down to private LL. The state of the world economy, lack of boarder control, pandemic, the roads... ALL down to private LL.

@YeahComeOnThen no, the financialisation of housing, worldwide, is the single biggest cause of the housing crisis. Treating housing as a commodity, rather than a public amenity, or service even, necessity, is the issue. Laissez faire economics cannot be applied to a need, like air or water, if it is controlled by the rich. The market cannot control if you have to have something to live and it's held in the hands of a few. Unless you go fully laissez faire and just let people take what they want if they can.

It's 'border' BTW. Not 'boarder' unless you believe boarding schools caused the housing crisis. Actually, come to think, Eton...

LauderSyme · 23/04/2024 04:08

"I feel really uncomfortable about it and I'm not completely sure why"

This bit of your post is weird and unsettling. Your cleaner is in paid work. She lives in Great Britain, a member of the G7, one of the world's wealthiest countries in one of the world's richest continents. This is the twenty first century. She should not have to live in a tent.

Surely any right-minded person would feel worse than "uncomfortable" about it?

CompletelyDifferentGoldSpangles · 23/04/2024 04:21

MariaLuna · 23/04/2024 01:55

she seems to live on coke and cigarettes.

Do you mean coca cola or cocaine?

Neither would surpise me, frankly.

While you seem to survive on pure spite.

CompletelyDifferentGoldSpangles · 23/04/2024 04:23

Some people on this thread - not the OP - could actually do with a life changing disaster to happen to their finances or living situation. It would teach them a valuable lesson.

LauderSyme · 23/04/2024 04:32

MariaLuna · 23/04/2024 01:55

she seems to live on coke and cigarettes.

Do you mean coca cola or cocaine?

Neither would surpise me, frankly.

Cocaine is rather expensive. I believe it's £70 a gram these days. Tricky to afford that if you can't afford basics like a roof over your head.

MonsieurSpade · 23/04/2024 04:52

EveSix · 21/04/2024 08:05

You are probably right. Your poor cleaner. Like ToBe says, get angry.

It feels like extraordinary cognitive dissonance that on a parenting site, we are not collectively outraged at the housing situation in Britain. Because this is what awaits our own children. Without a shadow of a doubt. Children in our DC's nursery groups and primary school classes will face unprecedented and insurmountable difficulties with housing and employment in the next decade or two.

Irrespective of whether our own privilege will be sufficient to future-proof and insulate our own DC from this unfolding crisis, we should all be paying very close attention to who benefits from the current state of affairs and act in accordance with our conscience. To paraphrase Nye Bevan "No society can call itself civilised when its citizens are unable to access housing for lack of means."

We need to push for radical reform and regulation of the rental housing market ‐not primarily through government subsidy, but a strict review of landlordship, and who is allowed to financially benefit from letting property to the tune of how much. We need to rethink the extent to which it is deemed acceptable to turn a profit from someone else's basic human need for shelter and whether the government should be lining the pockets of private landlords through housing benefit payments.

If we think this doesn't concern us because our own DC will be 'fine', we have another think coming.

19.% or 4.6 million of households are privately rented.
Since 2016 more than 400.000 LL’s have sold up, that’s almost 10%.
47% of LL’s in 2023 wanted to ‘shift’ their properties.
Be careful what you wish for.

Also please explain how it can be right that big supermarkets profit from our basic human right to eat food. Or is it just corner shops you would penalise.
Perhaps the government should stop lining the pockets of Tesco through benefits.

ShelfShark · 23/04/2024 07:01

newbie202020 · 21/04/2024 08:19

Thanks all for the thoughts. For those commenting on the rate, she asked for £17p/h, is in line with the rates of other cleaners advertising and a quick sense check on the street and school whatsapps this seemed to be the going rate. Having said that I will definitely consider upping her rate. In relation to leaving food out this is a good idea although she won't even accept a cup of tea when offered and seems to live on coke and cigarettes.

Regarding paying her cash (I pay straight into her bank account) the onus isn't on me to ensure she's paying tax.

The onus is on you to make sure she is legally entitled to work in the UK.

I agree that £17/hr is the going rate for a cleaner in London. It was a recent topic of conversation on my local WhatsApp group. We are zone 1.

Maninthemoonsmiles · 23/04/2024 07:31

OP I can understand why you are feeling very worried about your cleaner and want to help her but without intruding or making her feel uncomfortable. It’s tricky but could you ask her about the photo and then if she is actually living in a tent help her with finding somewhere to live. You probably have way more contacts than her as well as the language so hopefully can advocate for her if that is what she wants.

I like the suggestions to also do small things to help like sick pay, food and maybe can offer things you are passing on eg good clothes if you think she would wear them. My mum was given a whole high quality wardrobe like this.

I hope she is OK. Election coming everyone.

Original poster
newbie202020 · 23/04/2024 07:59

@maninthemoonsmiles thanks for your thoughts on this

OP posts:
Original poster
newbie202020 · 23/04/2024 08:03

@FinanceFinanceLPlates no, I'm not paying her sick pay. She is self-employed so I'm not required to. Equally I'm not required to pay her holiday pay nor check if she is able to work legally in the UK, as some other posters have suggested. However, I may decide to make some additional payment to her however I'm not sure that an extra week or two's payment will really help too much (yes, in the short term) but it will be unlikely to help her afford to move out of living in a tent

OP posts:
User1979289 · 23/04/2024 08:05

DrJoanAllenby · 21/04/2024 07:10

Is she here legally?

I would look into the implications of paying her cash in hand if she isn't paying tax etc.

FFS - what is the matter with people. Your first instinct is to grass her up to Inland Revenue?

Blackcats7 · 23/04/2024 08:18

£20 an hour in hampshire so surely London must pay more?
I think you should pay her more and if it was me and I could afford it I would find ways to give her a bonus from time to time in a manner which didn’t upset or make her feel patronised.
I would try to find out if she needs any support regarding language, housing, benefits too. I couldn’t live with myself if I let this happen without doing my very best to help her.

AGodawfulsmallaffair · 23/04/2024 08:25

walnutcoffeecake · 21/04/2024 13:31

Living in a tent caring for a sick husband and cleaning your home and other homes she got her hands full and still smiles.
While you come on MN to moan about her.
Get your head out the clouds not all of us have an up market life.
your shit stinks no matter who you are.

Edited

What are you talking about? She’s not moaning, she’s worried about her. Why are you so rude?

VeganCow · 23/04/2024 08:27

You cant compare sole trader hourly rate to an employed role hourly rate.
That cleaner has other costs and is not taking home that £ph you pay for cleaning. Fuel to travel between jobs, cleaning products, equipment like vacuum cleaner, hoover bags, mop etc, washing and drying of all the dirty cloths and mops. Then factor in time doing the books, plus holiday and sick pay must come out of that because self employed don't get given it.

ComtesseDeSpair · 23/04/2024 08:55

Blackcats7 · 23/04/2024 08:18

£20 an hour in hampshire so surely London must pay more?
I think you should pay her more and if it was me and I could afford it I would find ways to give her a bonus from time to time in a manner which didn’t upset or make her feel patronised.
I would try to find out if she needs any support regarding language, housing, benefits too. I couldn’t live with myself if I let this happen without doing my very best to help her.

The OP is using the services of somebody who has chosen to migrate to and to stay in the U.K, chosen to be a self employed cleaner rather than a contracted one, and chosen her own hourly rate of pay. If £17 is cheap then the cleaner is at liberty to raise her prices, and would presumably still get clients. Berating the OP for underpaying or suggesting that her cleaner’s personal and business decisions are her responsibility to put right with extra dosh and social support is bonkers. If the cleaner is declaring her income as she should be and working the required number of hours, she’ll be eligible for top up benefits as other low paid workers are. And in London, there are all kinds of free initiatives to support migrants and people with ESL with their language and upskilling which the cleaner could access if she wanted to.

caringcarer · 23/04/2024 09:02

As she's genuinely sick I'd still pay her even if she can't come. I'd also bump her pay up to £18 ph once she returns. I know it's not a lot more but I'm sure she'd be pleased because it's a sign you are happy with her work.

flippingflips · 23/04/2024 09:02

I don't understand why people with very limited earning potential choose to stay in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Why wouldn't they go elsewhere in the UK? Cleaners are needed everywhere - and her money would go much further.

LIZS · 23/04/2024 09:05

newbie202020 · 21/04/2024 08:19

Thanks all for the thoughts. For those commenting on the rate, she asked for £17p/h, is in line with the rates of other cleaners advertising and a quick sense check on the street and school whatsapps this seemed to be the going rate. Having said that I will definitely consider upping her rate. In relation to leaving food out this is a good idea although she won't even accept a cup of tea when offered and seems to live on coke and cigarettes.

Regarding paying her cash (I pay straight into her bank account) the onus isn't on me to ensure she's paying tax.

But legally the onus is on you to employ someone with proof of right to live and work in UK.

valensiwalensi · 23/04/2024 09:07

LIZS · 23/04/2024 09:05

But legally the onus is on you to employ someone with proof of right to live and work in UK.

Show quote history

She isn’t employing someone though?

The cleaner is not an employee.

Misthios · 23/04/2024 09:09

The onus is on you to make sure she is legally entitled to work in the UK.

Only if you are an employer under the Right to Work scheme. You are not an employer when you pay a self-employed person to do a job for you, whether it's cleaning your house, washing your car, cutting your hair or doing your nails.

Teddleshon · 23/04/2024 09:09

The private landlord rant is ridiculous. The reason that the rental market in much of the country is in such a terrible state is precisely because

flippingflips · 23/04/2024 09:10

DrJoanAllenby · 21/04/2024 09:46

@determinedtomakethiswork

Living and working here cash in hand illegally is not something I would support, no.

Paying a low wage to illegals is really quite disgusting.

£17 an hour for a cleaner is not a low wage. My daughter, a highly experienced PA, was offered £10.50 an hour in one of the most expensive areas of London. This was an agency and they said it was the going rate.

Menomeno · 23/04/2024 09:12

ToBeOrNotToBee · 21/04/2024 08:33

If you live in Wimbledon and you know people paying £14 an hour, that's modern day slavery. It's not enough for minimum wage equivalent.
Once tax, pension, and sick pay alternatives are taken into consideration, someone self employed should be charging around £20 an hour.

Show quote history

You know that minimum wage is £11.45 after tax, pension etc. Minimum wage earners don’t get sick pay. It’s crap, but it’s certainly not illegal.

flippingflips · 23/04/2024 09:14

newbie202020 · 21/04/2024 08:19

Thanks all for the thoughts. For those commenting on the rate, she asked for £17p/h, is in line with the rates of other cleaners advertising and a quick sense check on the street and school whatsapps this seemed to be the going rate. Having said that I will definitely consider upping her rate. In relation to leaving food out this is a good idea although she won't even accept a cup of tea when offered and seems to live on coke and cigarettes.

Regarding paying her cash (I pay straight into her bank account) the onus isn't on me to ensure she's paying tax.

She must have had an address to open a bank account.

theduchessofspork · 23/04/2024 09:17

I don’t know what nationality she is OP but there are links to some organisations here that support domestic workers - I would talk to them, and to shelter, and then pass that information onto her.

I do think you should be covering holiday and sick pay up to a certain number of weeks a year. You are right that you don’t have to, but it is morally wrong not to. Our laws don’t protect casual workers as they should.

https://tinig-uk.com/9-ways-you-can-support-domestic-workers

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