Big households that are tidy and organised and with everyone doing their share, and with both parents working ... HOW DO YOU DO IT?!

[DrowningInMess]

I have my DC with me most of the time, and DP has his here half the time. There are four of them altogether, ranging from a pre-schooler to age eight. We both work - him full-time, me four days a week (sometimes five). The last of the kids is usually in bed (if not asleep) by 9pm. DP likes to go to bed at 10pm ... so we're tight on time, in the week especially, and not just for housework but for each other, too.

Neither of us is naturally tidy, so we'd struggle even in simpler circumstances. I'm fairly organised, though, with the stuff that matters - bills, grocery shopping, school stuff, birthdays, car, etc.

The house is a tip. So messy that 75% of the time - maybe more - I'd be mortified, hugely embarrassed, if someone turned up out of the blue. We have to have marathon tidying sessions before planned visitors come, or before the cleaner comes once a fortnight - so she can actually have a clear space to clean. These take up the best part of a day on our fortnightly child-free weekends, which I resent - although sometimes I get a head start while DS is at school on my day off. But I resent this. So much of the mess isn't mine, and I don't want to become the household dogsbody who clears up after everyone else.

Anyway, DP doesn't like the chaos, but can live in it more contentedly than I can. But I feel constantly down about it - and defeated because, within a day or two of the cleaner coming, the house is upside down again. I don't want to spend so much of my time/time I could be spending with DC clearing up. And incredibly, it feels like we do a lot of clearing up - Saturdays with all the kids here feel like one big back-to-back cook-and-clean-up session. So why is it still so chaotic?!

The kids need to do more. They do a bit, when asked, but DP's kids' mother's house makes mine look minimalist, so we've got our work cut out for us; they do nothing there. I'd love some advice on what three- to eight-year-olds can realistically contribute to housework. And how you get them to routinely contribute without a fight!

I'd love to hear from anyone with a similar household size, and who's tight on time, who's cracked it - what are your routines, expectations, who does what, etc?

I love my house (it is mine), and I want a haven to come home to instead of my heart sinking every time I come in/wake up to the constant mess.

Thank you

I don't know the answer but will watch with interest.

I am following a flylady thread and find that simple routines carried out every day do help a lot.

I am gradually getting the dcs to take more responsibility too and as they see me do more and expect better standards, they are gradually doing the same, although it is a slow process.

I give them small and very specific jobs to do. eg "tidy the kitchen table" overwhelms them and they don't know where to start whereas "put all the pens in the pen drawer is easier for them to achieve."

If I am tidying up "for them" I tend to make a pile of each child's stuff at the bottom of the stairs and they are responsible for putting it away.

What sort of mess is the problem? Is it toys, paperwork, dishes?

You could give each child one specific responsibility eg one hoovers the hallway every day, one dusts one room every day etc according to age and ability and rotate the chores once a week or month.

If you detailed the sort of mess then we might be able to give more specific help.

Either way, I feel your pain and have similar problems.

I should have said, I have also found that getting rid of a lot of stuff has helped enormously.

Thanks ever so much for posting, carrotsandcelery. Some good tips. I like the idea of giving each child an age-appropriate job, and changing this from time to time. I'm wondering if it's fair to stipulate when it has to be done too (i.e. before screen time) so they don't have to be wrenched away from playing/gaming, which is more likely to lead to resistance?

A very good point about decluttering. That's part of the problem for sure. I bought a fantastic book on decluttering before Christmas - and then lost it! (Oh the irony ...) But I've found it and have got to page 50 today! I'm planning to take a few days off around a child-free weekend in late March, which I'm hoping will give me enough time to do some serious chucking out. We need to organise our available storage better, too. I hope freeing up some space will help with this.

And the rest of it is the everyday stuff: two loads of clean laundry sat in a heap on a sofa, waiting to be sorted; the dishwasher needing to be loaded/unloaded two or three times a day and backlogs of dishes building up on the worktop/in the sink/on the drainer; two airers of laundry cluttering up the lounge drying by the fire; a heap of muddy wellies by the back door (we've been outside a lot this weekend); toys lying around; piles of paperwork; bags/coats/shoes in the hallway ... general clutter (hence the book), but just day to day stuff too, as much as anything. Hence wanting everyone to be doing their share of the everyday running of the home.

Does that give a clearer picture?

DP is so laid back he's falling over, which is great in some respects, but perhaps not so much with this: I feel we both need to be committed to keeping the place in better order, and to sticking to whatever plan we come up with, and we need to have the same expectations of the kids. It isn't going to work if it's just me wanting the order and nagging everyone else to do their share; I'll drive myself - and them - mad.

On the weekends the kids are all here, DP spends the Sunday out with his, catching up with family. So he effectively loses a day to help clean up the weekend's accumulated mess - his and the kids' - and I won't regularly do all of it out of principle, although I sometimes have a blitz because I just want the space to be calmer.

Grateful for any further pointers - and thanks again, carrotsandcelery.

This all sounds very, very familiar.

As far as the clean washing is concerned either assign laundry folding to a child as their job for the week/month OR sort it into piles and get them to sort their own OR sort and fold the laundry and then get them to put away their own pile.

The only way I have solved the washing is to do one load every day. I fold what is on the airer and put in relevant piles and hang that day's load. I try to iron what needs it from that load that day but don't always manage it. Sadly there is no magic wand or if there is I haven't found it. If I do this then I keep on top of the washing and there is only one lot of washing drying at a time.

There could be several solutions to the dishes. Are you rinsing and reusing mugs, glasses and snack plates? My dparents made us wash and dry any snack plates we used. We either decided we didn't need the snack or we did it. That cut down on dishes. One person could be assigned the morning dishwash unload, lunchtime unload and evening unload so noone is doing it all day. Dh and I share this job as the dcs can't reach to put stuff away safely. Again there is no magic solution. You just have to get your head down and do it as routine.

Each child can manage to tackle their toys and debris every day. Get them a supermarket fabric bag each - a different style each so they know whose is whose. Send them round at the end of the day gathering all their bits and bobs and putting them in the bag. They then put them away where they should have in the first place. After a while they will get better at it. You can also roughly operate a one toy out one toy away policy to stop it building up too much.

Get a small basket for paperwork to go into or assign one specific place for it to build up. When it is full it is time to do the filing. (We have a pile on the end of the sideboard ready to file). At least this way you know where to look for the letter from school, brownies, swimming, the gas bill etc.

Get a shoe rack for the front door and coat hooks. Dh operates a 2 jacket policy for the rack at the front door. All others go in wardrobes. Get one of those upside down wellie racks for the back door - there is not much more you can do with wellies but at least they will have a specific place.

Come and join us on our flylady thread. There is a section on flylady for getting the dcs involved - it teaches you to teach them to look after their stuff. kids flying

this is our very laid back flylady thread. We just try to motivate each other really

mine do very little in the house but fortunately I only work part time. mine are older but are untidy.

I always keep the front room tidy so there is one tidy room in the house and the kitchen.

My hall is messy with shoes and bags.

Omg I felt like I was reading my own life op although admittedly there is only 3 of us and a smaller house
I'm like you, would love the house to be clean and stay clean but feel disheartened when everyone else (messy boys) doesn't seem to care/help. I am ALWAYS mortified if someone comes over been invited without my knowledge unexpectedly.
So for the last week I have made us all do a little bit of housework every day in the hope that we will get on top of it and I am very happy to say that the washing is sitting neatly in the basket and not literally a mountain! I have only a small load of ironing to do... the washing up has been done every day this week (no room for dishwasher) and DS room is tidy bar a few bags of toys to go to charity.
With him being six I think it's reasonable to ask him to put his washing in the basket every night, he also now puts away his toys every evening so it doesn't build up into an aladdins cave of Lego he also takes up any toys that have made their way downstairs.
I give DP a list of things to do when he gets home like the washing up, every couple of days I'll ask him to run around with the hoover. It's working really well atm I'm hoping to step it up a gear and hopefully I will no longer be embarrassed when people come round. Oh and I also dont sit down after coming home from work until I've done some housework. Once I sit down that's it! I don't get back up!

Its all about the routine. Fly lady will work, At least it does for me. I am always ready for visitors.

Wash everydAy and fold put away each night.
Dishwasher on at night emptied in the morning filled all day ( as someone said above reuse)
Shower buy a squeezy thing and quick clean loo and basin daily.
You need to declutter and find a home for everything. Organisation is the key!

Children can clean up after themselves, you need to train them. My three year old hangs up coat puts away shoes at front door. Clears pots, helps with dishwasher. There is no tv until chores are done. My husband also ( mr lets do it tomorrow) no one sits down till its tidy. Toughen up your not a maid.

My own mother complained bitterly about having to clean a big house, cook all of the meals do the shopping etc.....i will not be doing that.

Oh yes it took me years to work out the runnings of a family and a house so you are not doing your children any favours allowing them to be slovenly.

My children help with cookng also, all of them will leave home able to cook, clean and wash clothes! ( probably not iron tho even i draw the line at excessive ironing)
Good luck.

Routine.

WHile I put the kids to bed, Dh clears up the toys, clears up supper and loads and puts on the dishwasher.

When I come down, washing (kids dirty clothes and anything from our wash basket) goes in the machine and I turn it on in the morning on the way to work. Dh sticks it in the dryer in the afternoon when he gets in. While one of us is cooking tea the other folds the washing.

Before I go to bed I sort stuff for the morning - lunches, breakfasts and get the tray ready for tea in the morning.

Once a week we have a blitz and hoover round the whole house. Bathrooms cleaned every day (swish and swipe a la flylady). Beds changed every 2 weeks.

Thanks for further posts. It sounds so simple, reading it here!

Routine seems to be key. And this concerns me because, due to our household/family make-up, almost every day of the week is different - in terms of which children are here, what time I come in from work, how late DP comes in from work (lunchtime or mid-afternoon when he's got his kids with him, and after dinner when he hasn't), who picks up my DC from school, etc. Some evenings DC and I eat at home; sometimes just me. DP eats at work some days, and cooks for his DC (while me and my DC eat elsewhere/aren't yet back) on other days. Weekends vary on a fortnightly rotation: DC with us one weekend, no DC the next. And I get my DC to bed while DP puts his DC to bed - so it's not a case of one of us doing bedtime while the other does jobs. Once the older DC are down by 9pm, that's when our chores time starts. And tonight, tired DP has gone to bed with the kids and has left all the mess (after a weekend with the kids here) to be dealt with another time - one evening in the week when he's less knackered?

So in this context, where do you start with implementing routine? And those of you who Fly, are you doing it as a team with your DPs/DHs, or do you tend to be the household manager and they do as you instruct?! I want the former, but if that's not an option, the latter is tempting! Although I doubt it'll endear me to anyone in the household.

Thanks to all of you who have posted your ideas and for getting me thinking about this.

Just to add, having settled DC at about 9pm, I am now sat at the dining table solo. DP was feeling tired after a weekend with the kids (three of the four DC are his), so decided to go to bed at the same time as his DC tonight.

The living area is open-plan, and I can see it all from where I'm sitting: piled up drainer, bits of food (mostly from his youngest) and mud all over the floor, the two loaded airers in the lounge and the two loads of clean laundry on the sofa. The dining table has used cups and yogurt containers on it and a few toys. And - admittedly - there's a fair share of DC's and my stuff lying about too. And the responsible adult in me is thinking that I should just get on and clear up our (mine and my DC's) stuff. But I don't feel like it because the house will still be a mess afterwards - and I have the choice to live with that lack of control of my environment and hope DP will get to it soon, or tidy away four further people's stuff tonight. And I feel grumpy about these options - rock and hard place. At least when it was just DC and me living here, we were (well, I was) in control of our mess, and could keep on top of it and clear up, if needed, in advance of visitors coming. I don't feel like that now; I just feel overrun by it - six people's stuff. And I feel like I don't want friends to come over anymore, because I'm so ashamed of the state of the house.

I've been thinking more about our kind of fortnightly routine lifestyle, as opposed to daily routine, and I'm thinking on the weekends when the children are here, they could all tidy away clean laundry on the Saturday mornings and do allocated chores and perhaps homework - before screens go on. And on Sunday mornings, before DP's children go off to see family, they have to do a "team tidy" - all of us together, and leave the shared areas of the house free of their mess before they come back to stay again. Reasonable?

But when DP just feels like flopping on the sofa/going to bed early after a long day at work/with the kids, I can't make him do his daily allocated tasks, can I? So it comes back to leaving it all and living in chaos, or being the household skivvy. Argh!

I think you almost need a routine for every day of the fortnight. It will be tricky to work out but it might be the way to make a start. eg Tuesday might be swimming day so you put a coloured wash on to include the coloured towel and swimsuit. That sort of thing. Assign everyone a job or jobs for that day.

Dh does a reasonable share. He wasn't keen to start with but as he saw the benefits he naturally started to join in too. There are things which really annoy me but I just pile up dh's stuff and pile it beside his bed etc. He has begun to get the message. I had to get the message too. I slowly realised that noone was going to come along and sort it out so I had to sort us all out. It is a work in progress

I really feel for you. It is a horrible feeling.

It won't be fixed instantly but will gradually improve.

Could you possibly have the cleaner weekly? Having 3 hours cleaning done every week by a good cleaner has honestly transformed my life (ie. I am a lot happier).

All children can hang up coats, put shoes in the right place, clear tables after every meal, throw away their own rubbish, put things they have been using or playing with away every day, hang up towels, put laundry in washing baskets, help hang washing on airers, feed pets, organise the things they need for school each day, and so on ...

Two things to add to the many excellent ideas

1. Ownership of the problem. It is everyone's problem and you should all help clear up - BUT you can't impose this from above. A family discussion is needed, everyone's ideas listened to, to create an initial plan of action, with a treat (doughnuts work in our house ) at end of meeting. Perhaps a review meeting in a fortnight's time.

1. (Idea shamelessly borrowed from Flylady) A timer. A 5 or 10-minute rumble at the end of the day, putting stuff away and generally making the place look good.

My dd's teacher uses tidy up music. Could you make a game of it towards the end of every day and put some lively music on and set a timer.

The best tidy uppper could choose the music for the next day maybe

It might make it more fun and a family bonding experience rather than a drag.

I agree with training re shoes, bags, jackets, dishes etc.

Hi just read your post re not making your husband do his share of course you can. Are you a maid? Do you both work?
I do not work and i do most of the housework with two pre schoolers. My husband still need to contribute to TIDYING up. CleNing will not take that long in a tidy house. The attitude of we will do it tonorrow is the problem. House rules are needed if you are all to be happy.
I would make the children tidy up at certain points in the day, before lunch before dinner. Before bed. It stops it mounting up. Add in chores at these times if you wish.

I wonder if you could let go of thinking if his kids make the mess then he is responsible? That is emotionally difficult to police. If he had designated things to do (even if he is tired) that would help - food mess to be cleared after eating? Keeping the sink clear? Kitchen clutter bothers me more than toy clutter!

They are never too young to start taking responsibility. I have 4DC. They all help with laying the table, they all take their own plate out to the kitchen when they're finished and scrape it and leave it by the sink. Even my 15month old takes his own plate, cutlery and drink to the table.

They all are responsible for putting their bags, coats and shoes away.

They put their own pjs away and make their beds. They put their clothes into the washing basket. I have one upstairs and one downstairs which helps.

Every hour or so I say right, let's all tidy up. It doesn't matter who's stuff it is, everyone mucks in. If they try to argue with me about this they get The Talk about the fact that I don't wear all of the clothes that I wash or eat all of the food that I cook but I don't moan about it.

DP works long hours but there is no way he would go to bed knowing that there was still stuff to be done. I'd be having words with your DP. Going to sleep seems like a total cop out to me, would make me very resentful and boil with rage.

How long have you all been living together?

Routine , routine , routine . I work full time , on 12 hour shifts , and we have 5 dc's from 5 - 16. Everyone has a task . Ds1 brings horses in , rugs, feeds , shifts bags of feed , does general bits, ds2 does uniform wash, dishwasher load after dinner . Ds3 gets wood and coal for wood burner and empties bins, dd4 feeds the dogs and lays table for dinner, ds5 does the dirty washing hunt and pairs shoes up for the next morning. Everyone brings cups and dirty washing downstairs, I sort out clean washing into colour coded baskets for them to put away. Every so often we have a debate about task shuffling, but they'll all do their bit. They are expected to help, otherwise I will pay someone and deduct the cost from the fun budget. Their choice.

Dh also has his tasks, dishwasher in the day, floor washing, etc, and I am general cook, and she who is obeyed .

Of course, all thses ideas work better if your dh works in the same country as you. Which mine doesn't.

To be fair my husband only really tidies after himself, he works long hours and is not here (and awake) that many hours.

Its def the clean/ tidy as you go that works.
Going mad get help if your holding it all yourself.

Find a place for everything to live, paper work in one place, coats in another, shoes on shoe rack and so on... if everything has a place it is easier to put things away and to find them afterwards. It is a big job to do but once it is done it will make your life so much easier. I also have one of those doormats that you can throw in the washing machine so people step onto that before they step on the tiles. Since my dcs were really small they have taken their shoes off by the front door and they still do it now even though they dont bring mud in anymore.

When you have all finished eating a meal everybody has to help tidy up before they go off and play or go to bed. Quickly sweep the floor. If you have room and can afford it then invest in a dishwasher, I put mine on after dinner and unload in the morning while I am waiting for the kettle to boil.
I put the washing on at night before i go to bed and hang it out before i go to work. When i come back it is normally dry and so i put what can away before i go to bed. If you can get a dehumidifier it will dry the washing very quickly for you. I do know some people who have different coloured baskets where they just put the kids stuff. I tried that but the basket just overflowed in their bedrooms :).

Get rid of as much clutter as you can. Give the kids memory boxes so that they can keep their treasured possesions but give away things that they dont play with. Good luck.

Just marking my place. I feel very much the same as you but with less kids and tbh the real problem is me. Until I get everything to have a RIGHT place, I don't like just putting it in a stuffed in there place and decluttering is essential before the real right places can be sortd out for the stuff we have left after decluttering and then there's the normal everyday stuff and so yes, it is chaos. I hate it but can disengage from it which is not a good combo. Argh - it makes me feel such a failure!

One small start I've made is designating my eldest son (all of 2.5yrs bless him) to be in charge of putting everyone's shoes in the shoe place. He loves it, especially as the shoe place is 2 big under bed drawers in the understairs cupboard so it's not hard and he feels sooo important. Next plan for involving him is setting and maybe even sticking to a regular tidy-up time every evening. Pigs might fly. But I'm going to try it anyway...