Finding feet/struggling STILL!!!!

[catbus]

Have been HEing since mid Feb; had LA visit from nice chilled bloke about a month ago and all went well.
I seem to have really lost my way with this whole thing and am really struggling. My husband is self employed/working forever and can't be around to get involved half as much as he would like.

My eldest DD is 11. She has a place at Secondary, which we are not going to take; although I am still to write the letter to the school to confirm this..
She is possibly the one I am finding HE hardest with, but the one who keeps saying it is what she wants to do! The trouble is, she just won't 'bite' on anything, and if she does (ie; 'research' and powerpoint on animals) she just won't stick at it for very long at all. It's almost like she does it to get a reward; she is way too obsessed with all things screen orientated, which I have to be REALLY strict on. If she had her way, she would switch from computer to tv to ds/wii etc.

She only seems to ever 'do' anything after nagging/serious talking to. She does not lose interest in these things after any period of time. I have suggested a million things to investigate, all of which come to nothing.

My DD2 is 7 and although is more sponge like, will not settle/follow through on anything either. Most of the time at the moment, they will disappear and play, but the bickering is at an all time high at the moment, hence me trying to occupy them with other interests.
It is sometimes hard fitting in DS who is 2.6 and a real bruiser! Also being 6.5 months pg, I am a hormonal wreck this time around and completely knackered.

I guess I am wondering a couple of things;
Are they still just de schooling a few months on??
Should I be imposing some classroom like structure (which I have a gut feeling will be a disaster this way)??
Should I just let them be and hope that at some point there will be a lightbulb moment for them both and they will suddenly be inspired to learn??!!

I really could do with a few pointers/ words of wisdom as I feel everything has gone off the rails here and I don't think I am confident they are 'doing anything' anymore.
As I say, they are mostly outside playing/fighting/visiting next doors horse, begrudgingly doing the occasional bit of 'work', including lapbooking. I have wracked my brains a lot to think back over the course of a day and think what mad things they might have learnt from whatever they were playing/watching; but I honestly struggle to find much at all. Obviously, I too need re inspiring!

I have been following the bedtime threads etc a lot recently as this is an issue I am clamping down on a bit; although if playing cards until 10pm is helping DD2 learn her numbers, I am not stopping that all the time!
The idea was, that we would HE in a fairly autonomous way, with a loose structure thrown in.
The child led bit isn't apparently going anywhere as of this moment though; or perhaps I am missing the point of autonomy and should not feel so pressured by folk such as my well meaning Mum, who pretty much criticises everything I do and listens to nothing I try to explain about HE to!!

Oh gosh, I really have gone on, sorry. As you can glean I am a bit of a state and in need of guidance.
I constantly question the girls not being in school, especially with a new arrival in a couple of months. Having said that, I still believe it will be easier for all of us not having school to dictate our lives at a really life shifting time.

If you have made it this far, thanks for reading and advice as per, would be wonderful.

I should probably say aswell that I suffer quite badly from anxiety/panic attacks, which is highly embarrassing (I keep it hidden from most people in RL), debilitating and makes me feel guilty beyond belief.
It can be very restrictive with going out and about/driving, which is horrid. (I was having CBT for this, but they postponed it as they weren't happy inducing high anxiety states whilst pg.)
The kids do go to Art Workshops once a week though which they love, which is only about half a mile away, so I can just about get them there for that....

Your daughter is 11 and came out in Feb? Rough rule of thumb is a month of de-schooling for every year in the system. She probably needs totally leaving alone to cycle between the Wii and the computer and the TV until at least (adds on fingers) mid-september. Really. Treat the whole thing as a long summer holiday. It's years of having her natural instincts suppressed into other people's timetables and getting interrupted in the middle of things and having to study something because that's what we're doing this week rather than because she's interested.

Forget "study" forget "work" just let her play all summer

I would be inclined to have one really fun thing to offer all the time (maybe even have a list) like painting, baking, colouring mandalas, playing with cornflour/water paste, making icecream sundaes, sponge painting... so that in moments of conflict you can pull a trump card out of your sleeve. And otherwise, let them find their freedom for a summer!

Also, have a think about what you want to learn or do.

My DD (younger than yours) will be totally disinterested in things I set up to try and grab her attention. But the minute I decide I want to do a scrapbook, or (re)learn to sew she soon wanders over to see what I'm doing and ends up wanting to do her own version. It can be a pain with a 5 year old as she can't always do the exact same thing I'm doing and I have to be prepared for her wandering over with something suitable that looks exactly like my stuff. But yours are a little bit older. Wouldn't have to be academic stuff, just fun things that you'll all enjoy doing together that might (just as a bonus) increase attention spans and get you all into more easy going patterns.

I think it depends on whether you feel that some structure would benefit your family or not. Regardless of what your mum or other helpful people say, it's up to you really. There is no right or wrong way to home educate and you need to find what suits your family.

We are structured - I wouldn't be happy with autonomous although they still get plenty of time to choose activities in the afternoons. I really admire people who get such good results through autonomy but it's not for me. My 3 DCs work in the mornings and then afternoons are for meeting friends, doing science experiments, art and craft, watching a DVD, read alouds, playing etc.

Doing an hour a day of something focussed might help you feel that you are achieving something, which would reduce your anxiety about it. You can give them a free choice or a guided choice of what that hour will be or make the decision yourself. Maybe pick something fun for a starter project and move onto something a bit more formal if it suits you.

If you want to hear from other structured home edders, send your email address to here

[email protected]

and someone will send you an invite for a Structured Home Ed Forum.

i must say catbus, you seem to be having the same problems as me at the moment with my 13 yr old DS. i took him out of school in february as well, and all he wants to do is arty work and airfix. i try to make him do math, english etc, but it ends up in arguments. im getting a bit worried as we are due our first visit very soon and i wanted a lot of wonderful 'school work'. i wouldnt dream of sending him back to school as he is becoming much more confident and happy in himself. he's just started to take an interest in HTML and CSS, so hes spent the last 2 weeks just working on that.

mumette that's great that he's got that interest in HTML and, errrrrm, whatever the other one is - when he's got good at it, maybe you could use that to get him into other topics, by presenting research as a web page and he could code it himself?

I just wanted to say that I feel your pain! My eldest DD is nearly eight, and I'm 14 wks pregnant with my fifth .

My third child is driving me and his older sisters and my husband and his little brother UP THE WALL at the moment - I have no idea what to do with him. So it's not just you whose children seem to spend all day bickering and fighting - really!

Despite finding life very difficult at the moment, I still do not believe that packing the eldest three off to school/nursery would help very much, if at all. But simply believing HE is the right path for us does not make the bad days one iota easier to get thru...

My only other thought was to reassure you that even if your children are not doing "work", and seem uninterested in "learning" anything, they are still absorbing and noticing and understanding and analysing LOADS in their daily life. The fact that this new-found knowledge/ understanding/ interest is not articulated to a parent, or does not result in a beautiful piece of written work, does not mean that their brains are not constantly working with their surroundings.

Courage! Continue to fight the good fight. Just because it's difficult does not mean it's not worth attempting

No words of wisdom or comfort, I'm afraid, I just wanted to say that I, too, feel your pain. My 13 year old DS 3 is exactly like this. He would spend every waking hour playing X-box, DS, Nintendo or whatever or watching rubbish on the tv. It's nothing to do with deschooling, he's been HE for 3, almost 4, years, and he has always been the same. Even trying to enforce some kind of structure fails dismally due to things like lost pencils, needing the loo ( for 1/2an hour at a time), getting a drink, setting up his music stand (40 minutes for that one today). To be fair, he was like this when he was at school as well.

DS3 and DD (10) bicker from dawn till dust, it's their hobby. It's driving me insane and is setting a really bad example for DS4 who is copying all the skiving, complaining, whingy behaviour now.

DOn't now what to tell you except that you are not alone and that we all just keep plodding on. It doesn't make it any easier, though.

Perhaps you could use something that your DDs are very interested in as a starting point. My DD loves Nancy Drew, so we will use this to have a look at detectives, find out about fingerprinting etc. separating fact from opinion, that sort of thing. I would wait, though, until after the summer. I find that things become even worse on the motivation front when the weather is good.

You could also try playing games like monopoly/scrabble/pictureka/cranium games with them or puzzle games like Tip Over/traffic jam/logic links. This usually catches their interest because it is a challenge. OR things like sewing/cooking/knitting or building with lego or meccano. ALl good for planning skills, problem solving and the like, but not actually work.

I think that the best advice that I can give you at the moment is just to relax and forget about it. Let them enjoy the summer, get plenty exercise and fresh air and come back to it in the autumn with, perhaps, a slightly less firm idea of what "work" means. Easier said than done, though, as I know very well.

Thanks all for your comments; glad to hear am not alone in the bickering/screen addiction stakes!

I think that I will try to just carry on, whilst re affirming to myself that overall, they are happier out of school..
I'm still going to be limiting the screen thang; I keep talking to them to try to make them realise how too much of it really is affecting behaviour.
Am also going to try to keep plugging away on engaging them with something each day, although right now, if it doesn't happen every day, then so be it. Games etc are appealing, as I agree, many of them are beneficial that we have, in many ways.

I am looking for a happier household I suppose, and am just wanting them to get a vague wish to learn about some things going, so when number 4 pops on the scene in Aug/Sept, there is at least something started for each of them to follow, if and when they need. I worry too much, that the bickering is a direct result of HE and boredom. Stupid really; they have always fought, but when they play well together it's magic!

They are also adjusting to a new way of life and spending more time with someone close inevitably leads to some friction; something I hope they will learn to work through eventually!

I expect it's me having read Free Range Education, where people's kids sound so bloody inspired and sorted!!
For the Summer though, I am going to relax more about things and let them enjoy it as they see fit; preferably with minimal refereeing..

Thankyou all again; the comments are invaluable and make me realise that our HE journey is ever evolving for us all; I am not very far down the line with this, but finding out more all the time and really making sense of how individual it all is.

Well, am bumping this thread up again as I appear to be yet again in crisis!!

DC4 arrived in September: a week later we lost our home and moved early December to a different town. I know it's a good move, as we have a lot on our doorstep and are more central to things than before.

I am, however, wobbling chronically: whilst I am not going to stop HEing (and the kids don't want to go to school still, so might be doing something right!) I feel like we aren't getting much further than when I originally started this thread.

DC4 is an awful sleeper, especially in the day: I am lucky to get time to fart. I don't seem to be able to get any time to do anything with the kids, let alone cajole my eldest into much away from a fecking screen. She still is only interested in all things screen based (powerpoint/wii/etc) and a major passion for anime and manga: sometimes I feel this is a really narrow interest that I have tried expanding on, but she digs her heels in.
DC3 is a little man on a mission to interrupt any converstaion anybody might be having with shouting...

My DC2 is a bit sad as we don't have much time to crack on together. I don't feel like they are doing anything at all constructive, which is hard: we have done nothing written or whatever. It is nigh on impossible to get any kind of 'project' going for the most part, as DC2 needs a fair bit of help and DC1 a regular kick up the proverbial.

Sometimes I feel like I am a complete lazy mother, as most of the time at present, they are left to their own devices. It feels awful not being able to give them the attention they need: even as I write this, I am finally eating dinner and feeding!

Are there others out there who have let their kids just get on with it and it's been ok? I mean, radically unschooling sometimes seems like we're doing nothing.

Sorry for the moan, but yet agin I could do with some do able suggestions/support so I don't feel like I am totally screwing it all up.

Given your situation with DC4, how about easing up on yourself and letting the DC get on with it until, say, April? By that, I mean, have a bottom line of essential things you want them to do (washing up? cooking? putting on the washing machine?) and then just do whatever else you can fit in at their request.

For example, let DD1 spend all her time on the screen (without nagging or suggesting other things except for meals, chores, other life-maintaining things) but if she decides to do something else, join in (without comment!) if it is possible for you to do so. If DD2 and DS3 want help, then give all your time to them, rather than squandering it.

I always say that learning to sit on your hands and bite your tongue is the hardest thing for an EHE parent. You're not there to entertain them and it is your DD who will soon want to be able to take her place as an adult. Sometimes, giving more real responsibility (rather than made-up jobs for children) helps.

I'm PMing you my phone number in case you'd like to talk to someone.

You say your DD1 likes her screen time but still wants to be home schooled. At 11 she is old enough to be reasoned with take some responsibility for her education.
I would try and get some time alone with her (when the others are in bed?) and be very frank if she really wants to continue with HE she needs to start doing some work.
But let her do it in her style, working on the computer doing a power point presentation on a topic of her choice.
For things like English, you could have her write/type reviews on computer games.
So she still manages to keep on with her interests in computers but at the same time keep up with her school work.

With your DS2 could it be that he keeps interrupting everyone because he wants attention. If so maybe make some time in the day just to do something with him say 30-45 mins to do some 1 on 1 work with him.
Make it clear that it's only his time and no one can interrupt. But also make it clear he needs to have the same respect for others that when your dealing with them he can't interrupt.

You could together with DC make up a list goals of what you hope for them to achieve during each month. That way they can still keep going on in an unschooled manner but with some boundaries.
Plus it may help them to take responsibility for doing some work if they have an idea of what they are meant to be doing but at the same time they don't have to work to a timetable.

Yes radical unschooling can feel like you are doing nothing, but when you are involved with your family as you are full on, then then you cannot possibly be doing nothing.
They will be learning as they live life and right now living life full of a new baby and getting on together.

I radically unschooled our three (10 years today woo hoo!) and let them get on with whatever they needed to do at the time.

January was the worst time of the year for all of us.
We'd been cooped indoors and not been able to get out and about, it always seemed like home educators hibernate in January..........and this year seems worse than most what with the bad weather for the whole of December.

roll on the spring and events getting going. And for you coping with a new babu, you must feel like you are tearing your hair out!

Later when you look back at this, you will find they have learned all sorts of things that you had no idea they had taken in, or where they have got it from.

I'm with SDeuchars, let her spend time on the screen as she wants but go along enthusiastically when she chooses something else.

Have you ever read Joyfully Rejoycing? it answers all sorts of questions about radical unschooling

We let our children 'get on with it' and now know hundreds of young people who got on with it. every single one of them is doing well at FE college/work/university

some pages from Joyfully Rejoycing that might be helpful:

All my son wants to do is play video games

What if they aren't interested in learning?

If I let them, they'd watch TV all day

How do I motivate them to learn?

and
How do I stop wanting to see structured learning?

What about iTunes University? Some of the things there aren't particularly entertaining from the visual point of view, but it might be fun for your children to just browse around and see what might interest them.

I've hesitated to post on the HE area because I didn't HE my children (they're in their 30s now, so back then HE wasn't much known about). But in a sense I do HE myself, and now I'm retired I can choose whether to spend several days just meandering around, or to spend a day completely focussed on something that intrigues me. I get most of my resources from The Teaching Company (I won't post a link because their courses, even when on sale, can be expensive).

I have, on occasions, thought I should draw up a schedule but that doesn't fit with me very well. However, my morning routine includes checking out www.wimp.com/ which suits me as it's a daily collection of (safe) videos that have no theme in common. Some are just fun, some involve music where I have to hit the off button, and some are from TED conferences, so a very eclectic mix, but can often send me off into making notes or googling for stuff I wouldn't otherwise have thought about.

As for writing/making notes, for some of my interests I like to use MS OneNote, for gathering together various bits and pieces, because it's informal rather than the beginnings of an essay. For some other stuff, I've bought very cheap folders and used treasury tags to hold stuff I've printed off from the internet, which I flip through from time to time.

I have no idea whether anything I've written is helpful, because of course I'm at the other end of the age spectrum. But I did experience something interesting a little while ago of how completely disparate things can connect when I happened to be reading a comic strip in a Dr Who magazine which referenced axons, and my immediate thought was: "oh, hillocks!" I wonder how many people who read that Dr Who comic strip went on to research neurobiology.

Thankyou all again for your infinite wisdom! sdeuchars I will try as soon as am able to phone you: please bear with me! You always seem to know what you're doing!

Hugglymugly: I am glad you posted here: I like the fact that you are HEing yourself: I am too, alongside the kids!

Julie; BIG congrats on the decade!! And for the great tips: bizarrely, the day after posting this, eldest DD takes herself off to the local library soon after getting up, to get yet more manga books! She is BIGTIME into all manga and anime..

I so agree that the sitting on your hands bit is hard: after posting on here, I did a proper reflect and thought about all the things they DO do; it is a lot to be honest, so maybe I simply feel pressure from external sources. I find it tricky to go with the flow and not feel like we 'should be doing things' all the time. Perhaps it's taking me longer to de school.

Right, I'm off to take a chill pill and watch iplayer with them..Thanks so much again: it feels awful when I wobble but glad I can voice it here.

LOL!
it took my children a while to deschool....especially my eldest who had been so badly damaged ............but it took DH and I SO much longer to do the mind shift to finally get schooling as the only way of educating, out of our heads!

two suggestions :

1. Make some of the screen time useful - watch documentaries (seem to be suggesting this a lot lately but it works well for us) - lots of stuff out there is you browse BBC4, Channel4, BBC2 etc. An hour a day of "good" screen time would be good, and might inspire other interests (mine wanted to make icecream after having seen it on Edwardian Farm).

1. Get them to help with house and baby. Eg washing, nappy changing, cooking, cleaning - all life skills that will be great for them to learn. Maybe let them plan a menu for the day and be responsible for cooking it. Maybe they can be in charge of baby clothes for a few days - eg make sure they are washed, decide what to wear etc. Let them keep track of nappies - make lists for shopping etc.

That might give you a break a bit and them more of an interest in their baby - and learn stuff along the way.