Autonomous education and restricting TV/computer games

[Rumbled]

I don't HE, but follow this board as autonomous HE is something I'm interested in, even though it isn't viable for DS and I at the moment.

Something I'm intrigued about is how autonomous educators on here handle 'screen' time which, in theory, shouldn't be rationed if educating truly autonomously.

I have relied on the screen (especially the Wii) a lot this week, while I've been poorly and the weather's been so crap, and I have seen DS (nearly six) learn loads and come up with some clever strategies. So I can see the value of it. But it just feels wrong for him to be staring at a screen so much, whether or not that's a rational feeling on my part.

I'd be interested to hear what others think about screen time (and restricting it) in the context of autonomous education. Thanks.

I'm sure I've read on here that people have let their kids have free reign, and after a few days/weeks of total obsession the novelty wears off anyway!

I don't really know what we'll do, I don't think I'd be comfortable leaving it totally unrestricted. But then, we're not planning to be 100% autonomous anyway. I think the term for what we're thinking of is democratic? So DCs will have a lot of input, but not absolute control IYSWIM.

We are autonomous.

We don't ration screen time.

I wouldn't describe what happens in our house as "staring at a screen" tbh - it's a resource, a starting point for games and learning that might involve looking at the screen or might involve listening to the dialogue of a movie while acting it out with toys or costumes, or might involve thousands of printables being coloured in, or tracing a screen shot onto paper, or learning to read (oh yeah, that ), or learning to google search for information or images or games...

I was brought up TV free. It has always been a problem (I find it v hard not to watch TV if there is one available). It is glorious not to be handing that on to my children.

And my (limited) experience of Wiis (can't live with one, they give me motion sickness) is that a sedentary lifestyle is the last thing they encourage!!!)

That's interesting ommm, about the TV-free thing. I was brought up with TV/radio on ALL the time and I hate it being used as background - had to train myself out of that though, until a few years ago I had to sleep with a DVD on - hopefully common sense will prevail here!

I agree about the Wii - if you choose the right games they are anything but couch-potatoey! The Big Brain Academy one is good too.

We are autonomous, and we don't impose rules about the tv and other electronic schemes. We do, however, share our best theories with the children, and one of those is that there seems to be an awful lot of bickering and the day breaks down into a horrible mess when we start the day by putting the tv on. The children agree and we have agreed, together, not to have the tv on until after lunch and to spend the morning doing 'stuff' together. After lunch screen time is completely unrestricted. I consequently get reminded of our 'rules' told off for having the computer on in the mornings .

For various reasons, I was unable to ration screen time (or even suggest my best theories about it) when my DC were younger. I can say that they do ration themselves (eventually). Now, at 18 and 15, TV is used for entertainment only for a few hours a week - usually a DVD. PCs are used for work (writing essays) and also for entertainment and comunication, but not for more than a couple of hours a day and not to the detriment of finishing assignments, etc.

I tend to the idea that it is better for DC to be trusted and for there to be discussion about how resources are used, rather than for rules about time to be imposed. When there are imposed rules, people can spend an extraordinary amount of time and ingenuity trying to circumvent them rather than doing anything useful.

One of the best things I learned from a Taking Children Seriously forum when the DC were small was that it is very easy to give unconscious messages about what is important and what is not. For example, you want a DC to come and do something. If they say "I'm reading", you put it off; if they say "I'm building with LEGO", you insist that they stop immediately. The message is that reading is more valuable than LEGO (and also more valuable than whatever else it was you wanted them to do). This can have two distorting effects - reading is used to manipulate you and the skills gained from LEGO are not valued.

Oh, I just remembered that I wanted to say something else. Our EHE robotics team all like screens. The boys like to use the Nintendo DS and several of them have been swapping Phoenix Wright games (based on a US court, they involve solving criminal cases). This has spilled over into an imaginary game that they all go off and do when we have breaks.

For me, this is one of the GREAT things about EHE - kids do not learn not to play. These boys are from 11 to 15.5 and they happily run about with an alternative narrative in their heads all the time. They involve other people who arrive; it involves no more than stage fighting and they write charge sheets, investigate correct procedure, etc. It is really great to watch.

SDeuchars - your point about lego v. reading is a good one. I'd never thought of it before but I'll remember it in future - thanks!

We don't ration screen time, even though we do a small amount of structured work (very small amount this last term - maybe 30 minutes a week). I do find that it does ration itself in a way. DD2 in particular will go through phases where she watches quite a lot, then the novelty wears off and the TV doesn't go on at all for a week or more. Same with computer. She was really into Club penguin for a while, on all day every day, but recently the interest has waned a bit, I notice, and she's been making some Easter craft stuff most of the time instead.

DD1 is a bit more addicted to her laptop and spends a very long time on facebook. But even she will eventually say she is bored and I find her reading a book.

It's not something that worries me greatly, and I guess that helps me to be relaxed over it. They dance and ice skate, so they're not couch potatoes. I hope that as adults they will be good at making their own decisions about how to use their time wisely, as a result of not having to break free from rules imposed upon them as children.

We are off to Istanbul this month with the robotics team. See the TechHEds website.

SDeuchars - I so agree. I am very guilty of doing that, although I already know it's not a good idea! I notice myself saying angrily 'what are you doing up there?' and then, in response to 'reading' instead of 'playing on the DS', saying 'oh, that's ok then'

Having said that, we have had plenty of periods where tv has been entirely unrestricted, and I have no issue with them watching hours and hours of it. What I have issue with is when they get bored and start kicking eachother and bickering etc. I know it's because they need to start moving and doing something, and they usually agree when I point it out to them. We agreed to have no screens until baby's nap time and our 'pledge' has been rewarded by lovely, rewarding, mutually enjoyable mornings with very little bickering from all of us (myself included). So now the 'rule' has kind of stuck as it's proved itself to us as one that works. Of course, it's always up for discussion, and is flexible ie. if we're going to be out for lunch and all afternoon, then they often ask if we can consider having the tv on all morning instead, which I'm fine with.

I don't think it affects their imagination - if anything it informs it! It certainly doesn't stop them learning - they know absolutely loads and loads and loads! Way more than a lot of their schooled peers.

The only negative IMO is the irritability that comes from sitting being very passive for too long!

Oh yes, and also they become very confrontational and unpleasant when they watch programmes like Tracey Beaker and Horrid Henry . I don't censor programmes, but their behaviour sparked a big discussion about how some parents are very authoritarian and that is why some children feel the need to behave that way, but that our children don't have to do that. If they have a problem, they tell us and we can sort it out together. I suggested that if they found that they continued copying the attitude of those programmes' characters, that maybe they would be programmes to not watch for a while. I was shocked to hear them agreeing with me! When a Horrid Henry advert came on the other day, I turned round to see the older two with closed eyes and their hands on their ears .

It was only innocent copying, like all children try, but it was making family life very unpleasant so I'm glad they agreed with me!

I'm so, so sorry for not coming back to this thread I started until now. As I said in my OP, I'd been poorly ? and then I got worse ... and completely forgot about this thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts about limiting screen time (or not); really useful to read what others think about this and what they do in their families.

MathsMadMummy, I like the sound of 'democratic' parenting.

ommmward, DS is like you in that if a screen is on, he's drawn to it. And this is despite us always having a TV and computers around the house.

Some days this holiday, when I've felt rotten and not been getting up with DS in the morning, DS's watched three hours of kids' TV, then played on the Wii, then logged on to my computer ... I don't know if he has a saturation point! This just doesn't feel right, IYSWIM.

Anyhow, we've kind of gone with it, and I accept he's been learning loads ? problem solving, reading, and as you say, it's inspired play with his toys (when he's eventually rediscovered them).

But like MrsWobbleTheWaitress said, there does seem to have been a hike in crankiness from sitting still a lot (he hasn't been playing Wii Sports but less active games like LEGO Star Wars). And he's said things like, "It's not fun unless the TV/Wii is on," and, "Playing with toys is boring because you have to make it all up yourself," and, "Walking makes me tired and achy," which I find quietly alarming ? even though he does get back into some great imaginative play and has fun being active, eventually. There's just that initial resistance as he transitions away from a screen.

So as unautonomous as it is, I wonder if it's OK to say to him that screen time can be unlimited as long as we do something sporty to break the sedentary time up ... and the screen can go on once he's done his chores (which he doesn't do at all once he's engrossed)? I think we need a chat like the one you had with your kids, MrsWobble. Do yours contribute to the housework? How does that work "autonomously"?

Interesting posts, SDeuchars, about the messages we give kids. I can relate to that. I like the idea of TCS. I wish I had the time and energy to be in that mindset more of the time. The robotics thing sounds great fun!

Thanks again to everyone who posted.

We don't do 'chores' in our house. I try to accept that we all live in this house and all have acceptable levels of tidiness - I prefer things to be neater than my husband, for example, and I would never insist that he tidied up more thoroughly just to please me, so don't do the same for the children.

I do, however, point out that I don't feel comfortable getting out whatever game they want to play with me next until the room is tidier so they can either sit and watch me or help me - helping will take less time. Actually, I usually get so wound up if they don't help that I ask them to go somewhere else as it's bloody horrible working while others do nowt! It's usually not a problem though they usually help - or we find a fun way of doing it.

I did pay my 6yo to clean the bathroom and downstairs loo today - she's really good at it, and was happy doing one room, but I realised I really didn't want to do the other and she was bored so I said I'd pay her to finish the job.

I'd suggest you have a look at the website www.joyfullyrejoycing.com if you want to learn more about living like this - I've found it to be invaluable. Also the book Winning Parent, Winning Child and Doing It Their Way by Jan Fortune Wood are great.

My children are young (4, 2, 6 mos) but this is how "chores" works for us atm. I've spent a while feeling bad at the amount of time (it feels like!) that I could spend doing the house, esp as HEers no one is at nursery, and I often feel that I should be replicating nursery at home. But it's horrible when the house is a mess, so I just try and get on with it, with the kids playing or watching tv, and I often find they want to come and help me. They do what they can, for as short or long a time as they want, and then will wander off again. I just have one 'set' time for them to help, which is after tea 'tidy up time'. The quicker they do this the more time we have for reading stories. It's habit now, and the 4 year old is pretty good & occasionally tidies without being asked! I also suggest clearing toys away before getting more things out.

I feel bad too about the amount of telly they watch sometimes, esp when I'm feeling rough.

"So as unautonomous as it is, I wonder if it's OK to say to him that screen time can be unlimited as long as we do something sporty to break the sedentary time up ... and the screen can go on once he's done his chores (which he doesn't do at all once he's engrossed)?"

I think autonomous education can look like many different things- I think that as the parent whatever you want to say is "ok", if you see your child spending too much time doing something that is detrimental to their well-being/the smooth running of family life. Autonomy doesn't have to mean anarchy!

Hi
First of all, I want to agree with robber button that autonomous education (to me) doesn't mean letting children do anything they want in all areas of their life. To me it means letting them direct their education - decide/show when they are ready to learn certain things, what they are interested in finding out more about etc. and not imposing my ideas about what they "should" learn at any time (although I introduce ideas I don't impose them.) However when it comes to other things like what they eat (how many sweets, biscuits just before tea or crisps for breakfast etc.) I say no - others might not, but I have strong feeling ds1 would happily exist on ice cream if I let him .
I don't really have to limit screen time as neither ds wants to watch tv all day anyway. As others have said, ds1 will go through a few days where he wants more TV or computer, especially if he has just found a new programme or game, but then it passes and he'll watch just a little each day for a few weeks. But if I thought he had been sitting watching it for too long and I wanted him to stop I would say so - and I have done that with the computer as I don't like him staring at the screen for too long without a break.

Thank you for further replies and so sorry to be being so crap at responding at the moment.

The autonomy-does-not-equal-anarchy point is a good one, and also that autonomy in education doesn't have to mean autonomy in everything (which in fairness, DS doesn't have, but it can be blurry knowing where to draw the line).

MrsWobble, I also found your point helpful about how much do you value tidiness and order compared to others in your household. I suppose it is fair that whoever wants it tidier does more of the tidying, because it's what they want; what they value. As long as the others compromise somehow too, though. Thanks for the links/book suggestions.

This has been a useful thread for me. Thanks for all your ideas.

Autonomy in screen time is something I think about a lot....

My concerns about allowing DD1 (nearly 4 and never been to nursery & not going to school) are the ones voiced above...crankiness (mine as much as hers...I can't be doing with being sat inside all day) and that her interest would never wane.

I have tried it for a fortnight...it was hellish for me, we didn't leave the house, she was cranky, I was cranky, so was the baby...when there was something we HAD to leave the house for (I look after a friend's DD one morning a week and pick her up) we had much screaming...

Also, would you just leave them to it if they want to watch something and you want to do something else?

Is

I've generally found that if I can offer something more attractive than the screen, it will be leaped on with gusto. If a child is in intensive screen mode, I would tend to get completely ready to leave the house, pop their shoes and socks on, and then go to the front door, open it and say "HEY!!! Let's go to the fun fair!!!!" so the transition is very fast and fun.

Also, that the intensive screen time with an "average" child would probably last a month or six weeks, until they gradually learn that they are no longer in a feast/famine scenario.

I totally leave a child to it with familiar DVDs, although watching together can be fun too. Live TV would depend on the child and whether they might see something that distressed them. Internet is age specific. There's an age when you can leave them in CBeebies.co.uk, and then there's an age when you come back after three minutes to find them searching for favourite characters on youtube, yk? It almost needs more of a parental eye once a child is literate, just in case they end up seeing some dodgy video they didn't want to see.

Thank you...that helps. I think (after much chatting with the DH and reading that joyfullyrejoycing site) that we're going to give it a go...for at least a couple of months trial...