Would you worry about qualifications?

[musicposy]

Hi there, our elder daughter has just turned 13. The Secondary LA bloke came round just before Christmas and was very refreshing - we were worrying about GCSEs etc, and whether she would need to eventually return to school. He said to write to all the places and careers she might want at 16/ 18, and find out what she needs to achieve.

Well, we've written to dance schools, ballet schools, performing arts colleges, employers such as holiday companies etc. She wants to do something in dance.

The overwhelming response we've got is that they couldn't give two hoots about her GCSEs. I'm not sure I wanted this response because it obviously hasn't motivated her towards studying! I've told a few people and they were utterly shocked. They've all said "well, of course you need good GCSEs". But it seems if you want to be a dancer, performer, holiday camp worker (we're talking redcoat type stuff) or the like, you don't, actually. They want to see that a)she's not just dropped out and is doing something useful with her time, and b) they care about how good a dancer and performer she is, nothing else. Holiday camps also want experience with children (which she is getting, she helps her ballet teacher with the little ones). A few places said they looked for 5 GCSEs or equivalent but added the proviso "but we don't care what grades, we don't look at those".

Now I'm in a dilemma. She's a clever girl and the school had her in the 10 A* GCSE type track. Am I selling her short if we don't bother much with GCSEs? What if she changes her mind career-wise later on? Do you think that if you can get into a top university, you should?
On the other hand, am I selling her short if I take up her time studying loads of miscellaneous subjects when she could be doing ballet practice?

Only 4 months into home ed and I feel we have some choices to make that will affect her whole life! But I know some people like Julie have been here before, with home educating teenagers, so I wondered what everyone's take on it was. Thanks for all advice, whatever your opinion!

GCSEs are just a pointless piece of paper IMO. They are a means to an end - and if the end doesn't need them, then why waste your time and energy doing them? If she wants to go to university later on, she can do access courses, or the GCSEs themselves easily enough when she actually needs them. Why study something you're not interested in just because? She's unlikely to get very good grades if she's not interested!

ps. how great to have such an enlightened LA

I have no experience with this...but how about working through the Open University on subjects she would enjoy rather than feel she has to do? They have lots of arts based ones which are great and the level one courses shouldn't be too hard to start with....I did the arts foundation course along with music, art and english highers (A-level) at home, sat exams in my local school...HTH

My cousin's girlfriend was home educated. She is a lovely, extremely well rounded girl. However, she has struggled to get work because she doesn't have any formal qualifications. It means that it's hard for her to get a foot in the door of any jobs as she hasn't got any "proof" of her academic achievement.

Once she got an interview, she did well, but getting that interview was very hard and she was turned down for interview umpteen times.

I suppose the bottom line is that a lot of employers do look at exam results and it depends whether you're prepared to take the chance that dancing is what your dd is always going to want to do. What if she changes her mind in a few years' time?

I went to university later in life (aged 28), they still asked for GCSEs and either A Levels or equivalent. In fact, I had to take an additional GCSE at evening college because I needed a science.

But it's not a chance you're taking - you can do GCSEs/A-Levels/Diplomas at any time. It's not as if it's 'now or never'. If she wants to do them now, then by all means go for it. But if she doesn't then she probably won't get the fab marks you/she are hoping for anyway, so what's the point?

i hope that my dc will get some gcse's. In this climate it would be handy for them to have some kind of qualifications.

We are going to do one subject slowly at a time and see how we get on. maths, english, a language and one or 2 sciences will be what we aim for. None of all this 25 A*, lord knows how they manage to do all that!
But a good basic set of gcse will do for most jobs (i hope)

She's 13. When I was 13 I wanted to be a hairdresser. I'm not . I'd at least make sure she gets 5 A-C minimum expected by a lot of employers and colleges, just in case she changes her mind. It's not that she'll never have another chance to do them, just that now is probably the easiest time for her to do them. If she was on track for 10 A*/As, 5 A-C should be really easy for her to study for at home.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. With my ds we did a few gcse's over a few years, I think he ended up with 5 purely because the college wanted him to have 5 insisting that the University would require them, so he did them alongside his A levels. When he did go to uni he found they weren't at all interested in his gcse's, only what he had got at As and A level.

I know quite a few other HE children who have gone on to university without gcses or A levels, simply by doing a foundation year, or by showing a portfolio and being accepted solely on the strength of that.

One lad went to college and found they insisted he did basic skills courses in everything, as in their eyes being home ed (and in a wheelchair) he must be far behind. He got fed up with that, left the college, went to the local uni and got a place on a degree course purely based on the interview and on film work he had done previously (including winning a national film competition with an animated film he made)

Another thing worth bearing in mind is that many (and good) universities LOVE mature students with unususual life paths.

Imagine the admission tutor with a heap of forms of hundreds of application with identikit 10 A* GCSEs and on the school council and all the other obvious things.

And you think "yeah yeah yeah" and make them an offer, as does every Russell group university they apply to, and they come and they work their way through and get a respectable 2:1 and 3 years later they ask you for a reference and you have no idea which one they were because, really, they had been so trained up to be identikit that they didn't make much of an impact.

And then you get to a form which says "home educated. I didn't bother with GCSEs. Instead, I did 2 A levels while working part time at the age of 17, and then I did an OU foundation course in this subject and I'm now very keen to come and study it at university". And you think "hmm, that's a bit odd" and you invite them to interview (which you don't bother with with the identikit ones, tbh) and within 2 minutes it's clear that of all the people on the list, this one has actually thought about the course and why they want to study it and they are raring to go. And you offer them a place and they take the whole thing seriously because it was really THEM that wanted to come, not the school wanting to make sure that all people who are bright enough have a shot at a Russell Group university, and not the parents wanting to make sure their child goes to university because of the doors it opens afterwards - it was really the student whose passion was driving it. And they get a first.

Not an invented narrative, by the way, but inside experience which has been replicated many times.

Don't let your child waste their life doing things "just in case". If they need 5 GCSEs for something they want to do at the age of 18, how difficult is it going to be for them to gain them and gain them fast? I mean, really?

Wow onwardandupward your post is inspiring for home educators! Very true too.

These posts are all so inspiring, so thanks.

A couple of thigs I considered have been said here. A music teacher I know at a prestigious local private school said to me "she can do GCSEs at 60, but she can only be a dancer when she's young. Let her follow her dreams." I thought it was very thought-provoking.

But also, the people who say about getting the 5 A-C grades, I think that might be worth doing, especially with English and Maths. They don't look very hard, tbh, it's just the logistics of it.

We had so much Russell Group University type of pressure from the school that it kind of brainwashes you into thinking that if you can, you should. But should you? At the moment she would just fulfilling other people's expectations of her, not her own dreams. And yes, like you, BurnsifiedEffect, I got excellent O levels - but I'm not rich and I'm not in a high powered job (I'm happy, though, but that's nothing to do with my O levels!). School sell you this myth that good grades = riches and success. I'm not so sure.

I think, onward and upward, that some of the people she wrote to were quite surprised and impressed when they wrote back. I think so many people just go through a mill and here was someone thinking about how to achieve their goals for themselves. So I already see what home educators mean about standing out from the homogenized norm.

I do worry that she might change her mind about what she wants out of life, as she is still relatively young, and I need that to be OK for her to do, not for her to feel she's shut off her options.

Thank you for all your replies, keep them coming! I think we will do lots of talking over the next few weeks about what she wants. The school weren't big on that so it is very new to her!

Hiya musicposy
Have you and dd1 read Grace Llewellyns 'Teenage Liberation handbook: How to quit school and get an education' yet?
That was the book that set my mind at ease more than anything and woke me and mine up to the possibilities and freedoms that home ed could bring.
It's written for teens, but is a revelation for parents too, I think.

My three had a big advantage in that their beloved half brother had suffered all the way through school and come out with out any any qualifications that were worth having.
He took his time and bummed around through his late teenage years. He finally got his act together in his twenties and took his degree in as a mature student-and loved his time as Uni.
He used an access course to get there.
He tells us that aged 16 and 18 he simply wasn't ready to do such things.
He got a very respectable 2:1 -even though he was off sick for sometime during the last few months of the course.

He has a job he loves now and is undecided on whether to take his Msc or to go on a work exchange to Australia for a year.

From him my children have learned that you don't have to rush to do qualifications-according to someone else's timetable, if it doesn't suit you.

You know that it seems that dd2 has some talent as a singer, and so she intends to follow that path. However she is keen to keep on with some level of academic qualifications. She like many home ed young people started an OU course aged 15 and did well. She hasn't bothered with GCSEs.

This has increased her choices she feels. She could use the OU courses to go to FE college in September-after all they could hardly say there is no evidence that she could study to the required level is there?

She may look at some music/theatre establishment
or she may choose to continue to be home educated and continue to work at her singing/music career AND do more OU courses. At the moment this looks the more likely path-she can continue with the OU alongside what ever else she does, at her own pace-and get a degree worth having and NO DEBT!

On the other hand ds just chose to do a couple of GCSEs part time at a local college and used those and his interview to get into FE college and did A levels.
When asked how his interview went, he told me "I played the 'home ed card'-made me stand out from the crowd and seem motivated and problem solving."
For what it is worth it seems our local FE college loves the home ed young people that go there. Apparently they do stand out as self motivated and take a much greater part in classes than the schooled young people do.

I'm with the others on this. Take a deep breath and wait and see what she wants to do and what she is interested in.

Hi musicposy, we've been in a similar situation with DS, as his real interest in life is music and that's what he plans to have a career in. Our choice to HE was so that he had as much opportunity as possible to spend time and effort on that.

But he does understand that many musicians don't actually manage to make enough to pay the bills, and those that do usually have a mix of different jobs, so it would be a good idea to have a set of paper qualifications as well. So he's been studying for iGCSEs. In his case he's studying for 8, but that's just because the way we went about it that made more sense than limiting it to 5 or so.

Next year, whatever else he's doing with music, he'll also be studying for probably 3 Highers (Like AS levels). Up here, almost every college or university wants you to have Higher English, to show your ability to study to that level and put your ideas onto paper. Higher maths is also important if you want to show your abilities on that side.

From my point of view, it's not that you need these qualifications, but it's simpler if you have them than not, so long as you can get them without having to give up on the things you love in order to get them.

I assume that, however much your daughter loves it, she won't be spending 20 or 30 hours a week on ballet? If the school thought she was bright enough to be aiming for 10 GCSEs, then I would have thought she could fit a few in as well as doing as much ballet as anyone should at her age. As I say, DS is studying for 8, and is soon going to sit a Grade 7 on one instrument and Grade 8 on another.

I wouldn't say "you must push her to get as many as possible", but I don't see any problem in fitting some around her ballet.

As to "top universities", I have no doubt DS would be able to get into one if he tried (not boasting, but he's a bright cookie), but we won't be pushing him to do that unless he decides that's the route he wants to go. He might just go to college, or a specialist music college, or whatever. Once he's got the GCSEs and a few Highers, I won't push him to go further academically - being capable of it doesnt mean it's where your heart lies, and that's more important.

I think you will be selling her short if she doesn't get some formal qualifications.

I know it's a bit morbid to think of these things, but what if she is involved in an accident and loses a limb or her eyesight. Dance will no longer be an option for her.

I do agree that she can only follow the dance route when she is young, but she should have some back up as well.

IMO experience counts far more than pieces of paper, unless you are seeking a specific profession such as medicine or law. My husband went through GCSEs, A Levels and a degree...only to be told now, 15 after finishing his degree that his qualifications are irrelevant and what counts is his job experience. An interesting CV full of activities and experience will do more for most people than a list of grades...especially in the current ecomonic climate.

Most colleges, and universities will accept students without the normal 5 GCSEs, xpoints of A levels etc...they just don't shout about it very much! I've heard of numerous HE'd young people getting into top universities simply by submitting a portfolio of their work and an interview.

You can get substantial grants nowadays for the OU - which is a recent thing I think.

When I did mine recently they offered me the option to get a lot of the fees paid - happily tho I was already being sponsored

Something which keeps striking me about this sort of subject:

you know that bit at the end of Strictly Ballroom where the father cries out "We lived our lives in fear-ear-ear-ear-ear-ear!" and it goes on echoing around the room in slow motion. Saying "young people should get qualifications Just in Case or To Keep Their Options Open is, to me, a real equivalent of that. I believe young people should be doing what they are passionate about NOW, even if that does mean introducing new steps to the Australian Ballroom Dance Federation Championships rather than struggling to learn the bogo pogo. And if they later learn that they need the bogo pogo, then there is nothing to stop them acquiring that skill when they need it.

The school system, because it has to cater to so many people, is in many ways a one-size (or limited-sizes) fits all operation. Schools just couldn't cope with having completely individualised learning - it would be a nightmare for timetables and class sizes. So we all get pulled into believing that GCSEs are something that, ideally, you do 8 or 9 or 10 of at a time, and you take 2 years to complete them in. Oh, and those 2 years are almost always when a person is 14-16 years old. But that's to do with the logistics of running a large institution full of teenagers, not to do with what might be educationally or personally optimal for any individual teenager.

My sister did English A level in her mid 20s, just for fun. It took about 6 months of an evening class. Is her English A level any less of a qualification than the English A levels achieved by 16-18 year olds after 2 years of school lessons? Of course not.

It's all a question of losing that conveyor belt mindset.

A good read about the perils of Keeping Ones Options Open - a REALLY good read, IMO.

From the OU website

"A lot of this financial support is available only if you are resident in the UK and studying undergraduate courses. But there?s also a range of help for postgraduate students, as well as those resident in the Republic of Ireland and Continental Europe.

In addition, students with a disability, medical condition or specific learning difficulty may be able to get help with extra study costs, regardless of their income."

So maybe your problem is that you already have a degree Riven?

It is possible to use Tesco clubcard vouchers towards OU courses (and also I believe for NEC courses) and are worth 4x the voucher 'price'
i.e. £25 of clubcard vouchers will buy £100 of OU course= price of OU 10 point starter course.
That's how we did it-and we have been saving them since for dh, as now that dd is over 16 she should be able to get the OU course fees covered as it is based on the young persons income and not on that of the parents.
Our next door neighbour works full time as a nursery nurse and is doing a degree with the OU, with the aim of qualifying as a teacher eventually.
When I found out about it being based on the young persons income, she applied hoping to get her 2nd year fees covered. The OU did that AND refunded her first year fees!

Thank you for the link Onward. It has helped clarify some of my thoughts.
I have book marked the page and will pass it on to others on our local list, where we are having a similar discussion.

I agree onwardand upward that GCSEs don't suit everybody, but the OPs DD sounds bright and capable and they have the time to do the GCSEs.

I agree that you don't always need qualifications, but it's a damn sight easier to get into uni and get a job with recognisable qualifications.

It would be awful if she had major regrets later in life.

I think closing down her options at this stage would be stupid.