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Yet another government review of Home Education

226 replies

AMumInScotland · 20/01/2009 21:39

government review

They're just going to keep on at this. We have 4 weeks to respond!

Not read through it yet myself properly, but according to another forum the questions are:

  1. Do you think the current system for safeguarding children who are
educated at home is adequate? Please let us know why you think that.
  1. Do you think that home educated children are able to achieve the
following five Every Child Matters outcomes? Please let us know why you think that.
  1. Do you think that Government and local authorities have an obligation
to ensure that all children in this country are able to achieve the five outcomes? If you answered yes, how do you think Government should ensure this?. If you answered no, why do you think that?
  1. Do you think there should be any changes made to the current system
for supporting home educating families? If you answered yes, what should they be? If you answered no, why do you think that?
  1. Do you think there should be any changes made to the current system
for monitoring home educating families? If you answered yes, what should they be? If you answered no, why do you think that?
  1. Some people have expressed concern that home education could be used
as a cover for child abuse, forced marriage, domestic servitude or other forms of child neglect. What do you think Government should do to ensure this does not happen?
OP posts:
piscesmoon · 28/01/2009 22:10

I thought it went without saying that it would be if they were agreeable!! I don't think that anyone would ask for a visit to show off if the DC didn't like that sort of thing!
I am rather surprised that a DC would be worried about meeting someone from the LEA if they had been presented in a positive light, (unless they had had a previous, personal bad experience). If they have no idea who the LEA are, there is no need for the parent to put any worry into it for them.
I still think that they need to check up on the inadequate parenting. They are not all wonderful. My SIL has been HEing for years and she says that she feels really sorry for some of the DCs that she knows within the group.

seeker · 28/01/2009 22:13

Of course children often know better than I do - and I am very often wrong (and say so!) But I do know more about adult life than they do, and I do know more about the basic practicalities of life than they do.

Oh, and I do think that by 15, a child should realize that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do. If a 15 year old can't handle showing an Inspector some of his work, how is he going to deal a year or so later with showing his portfolio to a college or a University Admissions offices and arguing his case to be let into University with "unorthodox" wualifications?

juuule · 28/01/2009 22:19

"Oh, and I do think that by 15, a child should realize that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do"

Me too. But only if it's a means to an end. Not for the benefit of someone else who is making you jump through hoops so they can tick their boxes.

Generally people will do things they don't want to do if it benefits themselves or benefits someone that they care about.
If they don't want to show something to someone then why should they be made to?

seeker · 28/01/2009 22:21

Because - among other reasons "If a 15 year old can't handle showing an Inspector some of his work, how is he going to deal a year or so later with showing his portfolio to a college or a University Admissions offices and arguing his case to be let into University with "unorthodox" qualifications?"

piscesmoon · 28/01/2009 22:21

"I think the hardest thing for many adults to accept is that sometimes children might know better than they do! Once you accept that you can be wrong, then you can being to move towards living more equally with your children. But that's surely impossible if you're taking the stance of 'I know best because I'm older'."

I think that you have to take this to the logical conclusion so that if a DC says that they want to go to school, you let them. There is many a thread on here that starts 'my DC is happy at school but I want to HE what should I do?'. I am very much against telling your DC what to think, as in- I am an atheist so I don't want my DC to be told about religion, when in actual fact you may have a DC who becomes a vicar. I very often get shouted down when I say that DCs should be free thinkers-a lot of people are happy to have free thinkers if it fits in with what they think!
I believe in people making their own mistakes but it doesn't hurt to point out a few things in the light of experience-whether they listen is up to them.

juuule · 28/01/2009 22:24

By the time they are 18 and wanting university admission they may already have gone to college and know the ropes that way.
Or they may be more mature at 18 than they were at 15.
Or because it's something that they want and are passionate about then they don't mind showing things to people who matter.

juuule · 28/01/2009 22:25

Some of my dc want to go to school, they go to school.
Some don't want to go to school, they are HE.
Their choice.

piscesmoon · 28/01/2009 22:26

I agree with seeker-they have to get used to showing their work and arguing their case. My DS is at the point of going to universities with his portfolio (2 down, 3 to go), his acceptance will go more on this than his exams. He has to be able to talk about and justify his choices-and argue the case if they don't agree. I know a boy who has just done a foundation art year. His mother said that the thing that made him grow was having to show his work and have it criticised. Keeping it secret at home and not wanting adverse criticism is hardly helpful.

juuule · 28/01/2009 22:36

It isn't a case of keeping it secret. It's a case of deciding who you trust to show it to.
No problem showing it to a critical eye who will help you. Some problem with showing it to someone who may be looking for fault, or critical of current level of attainment in order to send to school.

"they have to get used to showing their work and arguing their case. "
Are all children in school capable of this?

seeker · 28/01/2009 22:42

I agree that a lot of children in school sadly aren't capable of showing their work and arguing their case. A lot are though! But if you are presenting a univesity with 12 A* at GCSE and 4 As at A-level you don't need to. If you have a portfolio of work which you have to prove is equivalent then you need to be able to - and bloody well too.

piscesmoon · 28/01/2009 22:43

They get used to showing their work at school. I accept that people must have negative visits from the LEA but in my SILs case there has never been any suggestion that they go back to school. They come very infrequently, have a friendly chat go away and write a report which they send out. My SIL was nervous the first time but my nephews have never known there was anything to be nervous about. I just don't see why people can't be open. If you are happy with what you are doing I don't see why you have to trust people before you show them what you are doing.

piscesmoon · 28/01/2009 22:46

My DS is showing his portfolio to strangers-he knows nothing about them-he still shows it; trust has nothing to do with it.

seeker · 28/01/2009 22:49

Yes, actually - do you have to trust your driving tester before you take your test?

juuule · 28/01/2009 22:57

Not sure what a driving examiner has to do with anything?

However, even if the child was happy to show their work should a parent intervene if they didn't trust that an inspector would look favourably (or even neutrally) on a child's work if it fell below the expected level for their age?

Julienoshoes - "And my youngest daughter could not write nor read, nor spell until she was 13 ish."
How favourably would the inspector have been to that?

piscesmoon · 28/01/2009 23:04

I don't see the problem. If I were to HE I would be confident that I could do it well, I wouldn't even try if I knew I couldn't, I would be able to justify what I was doing and my approach. The key to it all is to get the inspector on your side-being open, honest and friendly would be a good start. If people treat them as the enemy and are all defensive and can't, or won't, explain why they think that their approach to a non reading 13yr old is best then they are bound to have problems. Inspectors are only human-if treated with suspicion they will be suspicious back.

seeker · 28/01/2009 23:11

I just mentioned the driving examiner as an example of a situation where someone not much older that the 15 year old you mentioned would have to show what they could do to someone they have never met before, never mind trust.

In the case of the 13 year old non-reader, I would expect to talk to the inspector NOT in the presence of the child and discuss her progress and how I saw her achievements openly.

piscesmoon · 29/01/2009 07:40

In the case of a non reading 13yr old I would welcome a chance to chat about it with someone and get a different perspective. There is no need to act upon it, but I don't see any reason to have such a closed mind that you won't listen to other views. Someone on breakfast TV has just been talking about complaining to big companies-he said exactly the same as me-if you are defensive and rude you get no where-the key is to be polite,open, friendly and understanding of their problems and you get listened to. Treat inspectors with openness and friendliness and you will get the same back-on the whole (there is always the exception).

sarah293 · 29/01/2009 07:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

lindenlass · 29/01/2009 09:37

seeker "If a 15 year old can't handle showing an Inspector some of his work, how is he going to deal a year or so later with showing his portfolio to a college or a University Admissions offices and arguing his case to be let into University with "unorthodox" qualifications?"

A 15yo may well be able to handle showing an inspector his work, but just not wish to do so if there is no obligation to do so. He will learn the skills to do what he wants to do when he needs to, and will probably pick them up very quickly.

piscesmoon "I think that you have to take this to the logical conclusion so that if a DC says that they want to go to school, you let them."

And I would do that - I've said that already. They're not forced to be HEd, they want to be HEd!

And "Treat inspectors with openness and friendliness and you will get the same back-on the whole (there is always the exception)."

I don't think anyone's advocating doing anything other than treating inspectors with openness and friendliness. What we're saying is that we have a right to privacy, and our children have a right to privacy. As an HEor, my aim is to keep my children's natural curiosity as strong as it was when they were babies. One of the ways of doing that IMO is by not making education anything different from everything they're doing anyway. But an inspector isn't going to be interested in seeing them playing with Thomas the Tank engine - only in the writing they've done recently, or the sums they've written out (). Therefore, you're instantly saying to your children - play is not important, 'work' is.

piscesmoon · 29/01/2009 17:09

I think you are way out of date lindenlass, if your DC is at an age for playing with Thomas the Tank Engine then that is what the inspector will be looking for-not writing or sums. Schools have gone back, very sensibly, to learning through play. Even if he was looking for writing you should be able to justify your philosophy.
You might be unlucky and get someone with rigid ideas but it seems pretty silly for an LEA to give them a job visiting HE families! The last one that my SIL had was a primary headteacher on a year's secondment and he was very interested, said that he would have liked to have done the same with his own DCs, but circumstances wouldn't permit. I know someone else who is as anti school as you can get. She got a glowing report and was told that schools could learn a lot from her-she wasn't happy, she didn't like being praised by the system she was getting away from!! There is nothing worse than thinking you are a rebel and being held up a shining example!
If you are doing it well I can't see the least need to worry. I don't find it strange that parents should wish to HE, but I find it very strange that it has to be in secret and no one can check whether the parent is actually doing as the law requires and providing their DC with an adequate education. I wish that I was so sure that I am always right as a parent.

lindenlass · 29/01/2009 18:07

Are you only allowed to play with Thomas the Tank engine at set ages then? What about if they came and saw my 12yo playing with it? Ok, what if I said 'playing with lego' or 'playing with their DSLite'? Thomas the tank engine was just an example.

The thing is, I'm not worried! There is no way an inspector would have any complaints at all about my children but I don't want them to damage my children's learning by isolating education from life.

I'm not trying to do it in secret, I'm just not going out of my way to find people to interfere in it when I have no obligation to do so.

Also, FWIW, I don't think I'm always right as a parent - what on earth makes you think that? Stop reading between the lines!

onwardandupward · 29/01/2009 18:20

pisces I have a practical reason and a moral reason to object to obligatory inspections of HE families.

Moral reason: These proposed inspections are being brought in on the grounds of welfare anxiety. It is discriminatory to single out children who are not educated in school as being in need of routine welfare monitoring (completely leaving aside whether such monitoring would achieve its stated aims).

Practical reason: trauma to children who are not neurologically typical. There are a lot of them in HE, and it must be quite hard to imagine from the outside living with a child of, let's say, 6 years old, who is selectively mute - that is, they do not speak to ANYONE until they have known them for quite a while. Or let's say a 10 year old child who has never actually been diagnosed, but people tend to say once the family have left "you know, I'm sure he's aspergers". Or maybe a 7 year old with severe speech delay although not developmentally delayed in other ways, so that their family udnerstands their conversational code but they remain completely incomprehensible to those who don't know them.

The really really vulnerable children in this scenario are those who are just a bit, well, weird one way or another. As they are now, they gradually learn how to interact with society, they carve out their niche, they tackle the world from a place of security within their families, the people who love them best and understand them the most anyone is going to, and are doing the very best they can to help them interact with the world. ("Born on a Blue Day" is illuminating about the sort of spectrum I'm particularly thinking of here).

But with compulsory inspections, those children are going to come under a different sort of scrutiny. And it's no longer going to be ok to have them on their life's journey accepted as what they are - a little odd in one way or another, but getting there in their own time - within their family and friends circle. Their parents may well feel the need to have their children professionally diagnosed - and not because they will then be accessing extra assistance from their LAs, because most of the SEN assistance comes with a school place AFAIK, but because they need to have the piece of paper which says "this child is unlikely to be prepared to have a conversation with an inspector because they have condition A, B or C". So I'm seeing an unintended by-product of compulsory inspection as being that a certain number of HEing families are going to see the need tactically to go down the time consuming, anxious, maybe even traumatic route of clinical diagnosis when their child may simply have developmental delays or idiosyncracies of one kind or another which could be taken the wrong way by an unsympathetic council official. And remember that such autistic spectrum diagnoses are not an exact science in any way.

I'd be worried about whether having a label is necessarily a Good Thing for every child who then carries that label for the rest of their life. There are certainly HE children one comes across who've said "no, I don't want the testing thank you" even though they look pretty aspie to their parents and friends. Those parents may no longer feel they can respect their children's wishes in that regard, through fear of being judged as parents by LA officials.

This isn't a case of "nothing to hide, nothing to fear". This is a case of "child not sufficiently orthodox and normal OR family dynamic not sufficiently conventional = resistant to being scrutinised by council employees with God knows what ideology and values but a massive amount of power over the family"

Sorry this is such a rant. You know how HVs can suck their teeth at co-sleeping or breastfeeding beyond a year or whatever? Well, what about a family who continue to have a family bed as long as the children want it, and who maybe breastfeed as long as 3 or 4 who have older children being HEed. And where before the home was a private space, with sleeping and nursing arrangements rightly a private matter, under compulsory inspections, there is going to be some council employee with a tick list. That family has no idea whether the family bed is going to be seen as grounds for referral to SS. It could well be with a sufficiently closed minded inspector. These are the sorts of anxieties perfectly competent HE families are facing - that the details of their private lives may suddenly become a public matter to be judged by people and there is NO GUARANTEE that those people will be sympathetic to their way of life.

julienoshoes · 29/01/2009 19:22

The said 15 year old, had a very bad experience in schools and felt safe at home, and did not want to meet with the LA-whatever light it was put in.
Same lad took himself off to FE college post 16 and settled in well academically and socially according to his tutors.
Difference was this is what he chose to do-and when he chose to do it.
He is working full time now, in a job he enjoys and very much in the public eye.

julienoshoes · 29/01/2009 19:25

I cam across this today-when I had stopped looking for it!
Just to prove there are powers that can be used.
I wouldn't argue with this. Seeing a child where there is a welfare concern, is the proper thing to do.

The statutory guidance on children missing suitable education cites section 47 of the 1989 Children Act ( ie "is suffering or is
likely to suffer significant harm") as definition of "concern"

"94. Local authorities can insist on seeing a home educated child if there is cause for concern about the child's safety and welfare
(section 47 of the Children Act 1989). Where there are concerns about the child's safety and welfare, Local Safeguarding Children
Board procedures must be followed."

p.26 www.everychildmatters.gov.uk/resources-and-practice/IG00202/

www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/a cts1989/ukpga19890041en_7#pt5-l1g47

"47 Local authority's duty to investigate

(1) Where a local authority?

(a) are informed that a child who lives, or is found, in their area?

(i) is the subject of an emergency protection order; or

(ii) is in police protection; or

(b) have reasonable cause to suspect that a child who lives, or is
found, in their area is suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant
harm,

the authority shall make, or cause to be made, such enquiries as they
consider necessary to enable them to decide whether they should take
any action to safeguard or promote the child's welfare."

piscesmoon · 29/01/2009 19:43

I guess I just have a different perspective on it and will have to agree to disagree.
I love the DCs who are a bit different or 'weird' (not that I like the word). I can generally get a very good relationship because I don't force anything, I allow it to develop at its own pace and am non threatening. I have come across very outgoing children with severe speech problems, you usually find that other children get used to it quickly and can interpret. I know an elective mute, 7 yr old girl, she won't speak to me-she is fully accepted by the other children-they speak for her. It may be comfortable being fully protected by the family but I think it is much healthier being out in the community. One day the parents will be dead-they will have to function without them.
I don't think that having an inspector to visit and have a cup of tea is going to anything dreadful for these children-they are on their home ground. I really don't think they are going to force a diagnosis and force them into school-not if they see how well they are doing at home.
Health visitors have all sort of odd views, I used to make people laugh with some of the comments from mine. You don't have to take any notice! Do your own thing.
There does seem to be a them/us mentality on this, with people scared of officialdom. If you get into arguments, are defensive and dogmatic you get the same back.

I don't see why an inspector can't be invited in and just told DC1 isn't very good with strangers, he may be shy and uncooperative. DC1 can then be free to take his own approach (or non approach).
On here people seem so sure that they are right-why do they lose this with the LEA? Be confident in your own abilities. A friendly attitude will get you much further than defensive secrecy IMO.