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Yet another government review of Home Education

226 replies

AMumInScotland · 20/01/2009 21:39

government review

They're just going to keep on at this. We have 4 weeks to respond!

Not read through it yet myself properly, but according to another forum the questions are:

  1. Do you think the current system for safeguarding children who are
educated at home is adequate? Please let us know why you think that.
  1. Do you think that home educated children are able to achieve the
following five Every Child Matters outcomes? Please let us know why you think that.
  1. Do you think that Government and local authorities have an obligation
to ensure that all children in this country are able to achieve the five outcomes? If you answered yes, how do you think Government should ensure this?. If you answered no, why do you think that?
  1. Do you think there should be any changes made to the current system
for supporting home educating families? If you answered yes, what should they be? If you answered no, why do you think that?
  1. Do you think there should be any changes made to the current system
for monitoring home educating families? If you answered yes, what should they be? If you answered no, why do you think that?
  1. Some people have expressed concern that home education could be used
as a cover for child abuse, forced marriage, domestic servitude or other forms of child neglect. What do you think Government should do to ensure this does not happen?
OP posts:
seeker · 26/01/2009 22:19

inhindsight - what do LEAs do when they abuse their rights?

piscesmoon · 26/01/2009 22:19

LEAs don't seem to have much power; lalalenny has every right to be concerned and clearly the boy needs help. School may not be the place to get it,and most probably isn't, but his situation seems damaging, emotionally, educationally and socially.
It has been said, several times, that schools fail children and indeed they fail some children badly. However parents also fail children, you only have to read postings on this site to realise that many people have problems with their parents and have not had a happy childhood.
Just wanting to HE doesn't mean that a parent is any good at it. For that reason there should be some safeguards in place-what they should be is the difficult part!
I don't know how you tread the narrow line between being intrusive or interfering and a caring safety net. I think being more open about it and HE being presented as a valid choice would be a start, (many people don't even know they have the choice).

juuule · 27/01/2009 07:33

Lalalenny, If you notified the LA what did they do?
If you notified SS what did they do?

As I understand it both the LA and SS have a duty to investigate if concerns have been brought to their attention.

Have you spoken to the boy? What does he say? If he is truly unhappy couldn't you support him in speaking with people?

juuule · 27/01/2009 07:34

Piscesmoon there are already safeguards in place.

juuule · 27/01/2009 07:35

Lalalenny, has this boy been to school at all or has he always been HE?

AMumInScotlandsAMumForAThat · 27/01/2009 09:44

The LEA does have powers to deal with this -

Here are the relevant passages from the guidelines:

3.15 In their consideration of parents? provision of education at home, local authorities may
reasonably expect the provision to include the following characteristics:
consistent involvement of parents or other significant carers ? it is expected that parents
or significant carers would play a substantial role, although not necessarily constantly or
actively involved in providing education
recognition of the child?s needs, attitudes and aspirations
opportunities for the child to be stimulated by their learning experiences
access to resources/materials required to provide home education for the child ? such as
paper and pens, books and libraries, arts and crafts materials, physical activity, ICT and the
opportunity for appropriate interaction with other children and other adults.

3.16 If a local authority considers that a suitable education is not being provided, then a
full written report of the findings should be made and copied to the parents promptly,
specifying the grounds for concern and any reasons for concluding that provision is
unsuitable. If the authority is not satisfied that a suitable education is being provided, and
the parents, having been given a reasonable opportunity to address the identified concerns
and report back to the authority have not done so, the authority should consider sending
a formal notice to the parents under section 437 (see paragraph 2.7) before moving on, if
needed, to the issuing of a school attendance order (section 437(1)).

AMumInScotlandsAMumForAThat · 27/01/2009 09:51

So - why are this LEA failing in their duty towards this family? Either they think the education is satisfactory (seeing things which are not apparent to lalalenny), or else they are choosing to ignore the guidelines because they can't be bothered to do anything about it.

I repeat what has been said many times - they do not need to be given additional powers, they need to use the ones they already have.

Why is it difficuot for them to use these powers? If there are no signs in the home of any books etc, if he is not showing any signs of being stimulated by his education, then surely by these guidelines the LEA have the authority to challenge the parents.

There's no sign that they have tried to do this and been put off by "wily lawyers" twisting the guidelines. They just aren't trying.

You could give them all kinds of extra powers, and it wouldn't change that.

inhindsight · 27/01/2009 12:36

Seeker
" what do LEAs do when they abuse their rights?"
That question has already been answered on this thread by Astarte.
But to repeat
Many LEA's are supportive of HE families and follow the DCSFs 2007 guidlines for LA.s.
www.dcsf.gov.uk/localauthorities/_documents/content/7373-DCSF-Elective%20Home%20Education.p df

Some however have never even read the guidlines or just choose to ignore them. There are many examples from parents on he forums accross the country of LEA's mis-informing them of their rights to HE and what is required of them.

Just a few examples:
Un-announced door-step visits.
Insisting on Home Visits.
Insisting on seeing the child.
Insisting on seeing work.
Insisting on seeing a time-table of work.
Insisting the NC be followed.
Insisting school hours be followed.
The list goes on...but none of the above is a legal requirment.
Some LEA's deliberatly mis-inform parents. They imply that the above is a legal requirment.They bully parents into complying with threatening letters,phone calls and home visits and threaten an SAO simply because parents may refuse to co-operate with their requests and nothing to do with the child's education being deemed as suitable or not.
I re-iterate, many LEAs stay within the Law and are striving to build strong relationships with He families and many HE families are happy to co-operate with their LEAs. But sadly, this is not always the case.

Lalalenny's story seems to be the other end of the spectrum ....Lea's not using the legal powers they already have to intervene if there appears to be no suitable education taking place.

As already said...it's not the legisalation that needs changing, LEA's just need to learn how to use it effectively and fairly.

piscesmoon · 27/01/2009 17:51

I am not being difficult-I just don't understand-if a HE family refuse to let the LEA visit, how are the safeguards in place? Can they refuse a visit?
My understanding is that families that have deregistered have a harder time than those who never registered in the first place.

I think that some of inhindsight's list are wrong and shouldn't be done by an LEA. I don't think it is convenient to just turn up, following the NC is ridiculous I would imagine that getting away from it is one of the prime reasons for educating at home and equally there is no reason for having a timetable or following school hours.
However I would have thought that seeing the DC was essential and seeing the work and talking through their philosophy of education and how they apply it were very necessary.
Talking to the DC would be the most useful part of the visit. Way back someone said that their 14 year old was never alone-maybe I misunderstood but, as a very private person, never being on my own as a teenager and not being free to talk to people without a member of my family about would have been very repressive. The best advert for a job well done is an articulate, sociable, emotionally mature DC-surely the aim of all education?

juuule · 27/01/2009 18:02

Once concerns about a child have been brought to the attention of the LEA then they can ask for information about the education taking place.
If they are not satisfied then they can pursue things further as shown in the following that AMumInScotland pasted
"3.16 If a local authority considers that a suitable education is not being provided, then a
full written report of the findings should be made and copied to the parents promptly,
specifying the grounds for concern and any reasons for concluding that provision is
unsuitable. If the authority is not satisfied that a suitable education is being provided, and
the parents, having been given a reasonable opportunity to address the identified concerns
and report back to the authority have not done so, the authority should consider sending
a formal notice to the parents under section 437 (see paragraph 2.7) before moving on, if
needed, to the issuing of a school attendance order (section 437(1))."

They can't just insist on a home-visit when the have no reason to believe that an education isn't taking place.

With regard to
"The best advert for a job well done is an articulate, sociable, emotionally mature DC-surely the aim of all education?"
While it might be the aim it's not always possible to be like that at 14, 15... whether in school or not.

The 14 year old mentioned in the posts appears to have a lot of people interested in his well-being. I would have thought they could talk to him and find his views and wishes. If they were being kept from him then a mention to SS would probably be in order. Lalalenny has already said that SS had been contacted. What the outcome of that was we don't know.

piscesmoon · 27/01/2009 19:06

Thanks juuule-I hadn't realised that the LEA had such powers. It would seem then that there are already safeguards.
I appreciate that you might not get an articulate, sociable etc DC, but I would imagine that it would be the aim.

seeker · 27/01/2009 19:45

'Un-announced door-step visits.
Insisting on Home Visits.
Insisting on seeing the child.
Insisting on seeing work.
Insisting on seeing a time-table of work.
Insisting the NC be followed.
Insisting school hours be followed.'

The last two are obviously bonkers - but I actually can't see anything wrong with the first 5.

As I've said before, I think, I'm sure all the home-edders on here are reasonable rational people who are more than capable of education their children in such a way that they will no be at a disadvantage in later life - although I was concerned to read somebody saying that tey weren't going to do any GCSEs unless the child needed them for their future career - but there are others who are not like you all - and it it up to the LEAs to keep an eye on them.

lindenlass · 27/01/2009 19:54

Sorry that I (and I think another poster) concern you a little, seeker! Maybe you would find it helpful to read up on how home educated children get on in the world as adults, GCSEs or no.

Many HEd children don't do 'work' that I could show an LA inspector - why should they? The only reason one would need to do work is to prove to someone that you know stuff, someone who isn't with you 24 hours a day and wouldn't already know it just by being your mum/dad/grandparent/whoever!

Many HEd children don't follow a time-table because that's ridiculous! Why on earth would you need to have a time-table at home? Only if you were doing very structured home education. There's no need to though - children learn perfectly well without a timetable.

Insisting on seeing a child? What if the child didn't want to be 'inspected'?

Insisting on home visits - a bit of an invasion of privacy isn't it? No one can insist on home visits before your children are of compulsory education age, unless there is cause for concern. Why do you feel that ought to change at age 5?

Unnannounced door-step visits? What if you're in labour/on the loo/out/having fun doing water experiments in the back garden? Nothing except a very strong suspicion of abuse can warrant an unannounced door-step visit.

seeker · 27/01/2009 20:14

I am an adult home educated child, and the aunt of others -so I do have a little knowledge of the subject!

I am concerned that any child had avenues closed to them - home education at it's best opens whole new worlds to children - while making sure that they don't "miss out". I didn't - my nieces and nephews did.

onwardandupward · 27/01/2009 20:19

I would definitely concern you, Seeker.

If the conveyor belt of qualification isn't an issue for university admissions people (which it isn't, not even at Oxbridge), and it isn't an issue for the kinds of careers that were being talked about on the other thread, the only reason to insist on that conveyor belt mentality is fear of being different. But difference is something actively embraced by employers and university admissions tutors alike!

As for the five things you think are reasonable - well, I think Lindenlass has addressed each of those, and I agree with every word she wrote (as usual). The really shocking one to me is that you don't have a problem with unannounced doorstep visits! Even a school wouldn't be expected to accept unannounced doorstep visits from OFSTED inspectors!

"Insisting on Home Visits.
Insisting on seeing the child."

Both of those show complete disregard for the wishes of the child. I know plenty of children - shy, with SN, just quite private people, or with fear of strange adults brought on by awful school experiences - for whom compulsory interviews with LA officials would be completely traumatic. It makes me shuddfer to think of it - that they've finally got out ofthe living hell that was their school experience only to be told that they'll be visited on a regular basis by someone with the power to send them back into school if their education doesn't seem to be up to scratch according to the criteria of that official. Would that not interfere with someone's ability to relax and learn effectively???

onwardandupward · 27/01/2009 20:22

My last point boils down to this:

Lots of children who are in HE are different, weird, eccentric. Almost by definition. They are the children who either crashingly did NOT fit in to school, or whose parents look at them and realise that school is just going to be a disaster for them at this point. They might have SEN diagnoses, or they might just be shy or borderline aspie or otherwise weird in all sorts of ways.

Not all - of course there are plenty of HE children who are perfectly conventional and normal and it's just a choice their families have made.

But for quite a proportion of HE children, there are good reasons why they are not in school, and those reasons correlate with the good reasons why their parents are very resistant to the idea of strange adults being allowed to invade the privacy of the family.

Anyone with an autistic or aspie child is likely to be very very fearful of LA visits, and not because they have anything to hide, but because of the potential ramifications for their child's mental health.

pixiemoon · 27/01/2009 21:20

(acting as a bit of a devil's avocado here as I do broadly support HE and am finding out as much as I can for our future)

I guess the question is - what is considered acceptable sufficient proof that a suitable education is taking place?

And second related question - what constitutes adequate evidence to cause the LEA to be concerned that a suitable education isn't taking place, and therefore take further action to investigate?

Are either of these two criteria outlined in case law yet?

seeker · 27/01/2009 21:37

You can't be a teacher (for example, lots of other professions are the same) if you haven't got GCSE English and Maths.

If you are a remotely sensible parent you don't tell the child that the inspector is 'someone with the power to send them back into school if their education doesn't seem to be up to scratch according to the criteria of that official. "

Incidentally, has anyone ever been sent back to school on the say so of an LEA inspector?

My niece decided she wanted to be a barrister. She discovered that because her parents didn't think exams were important she had to spend several years getting the basic qualifications she needed. She is now struggling, several years behind her peers and she will NEVER get where she wants to be, simply because she is running to catch up. Her parents did her a huge disservice by not giving her the tools she needed to make choices. She gained a huge amount form her education - but it has closed doors to her.

piscesmoon · 27/01/2009 22:24

I agree that doors are closed without the right qualifications, I don't think that it is as easy as all that to walk into wherever you want without the right boxes ticked. I know people who have struggled, not because they were HEd but because they were at school and did the wrong thing. They get often get there in the end but it is harder. My father decided rather late on his career, he had to work and study in the evening to pass his exams. He did it but it was difficult with a family to support. My cousin did badly at school and regretted it later and so did OU. I don't think it is ever too late but as a DC conventional qualifications widen the choice.
I think it won't be long before Ofsted just arrive without warning. I don't see anything wrong with it, schools shouldn't have anything to hide-neither should HE. I just find it strange that people should be fearful of visits or make their DCs fearful. They should be proud of what they are doing.
Just for interest, Seeker, did you get many visits as a DC? Was it different then?
I fail to see how an LEA can make an assessment of whether a DC is getting an education if the parent won't let them see the DC or talk about what they do.

seeker · 27/01/2009 22:37

piscesmoon - I can't remember how often they came (it was a very long time ago!) but I remember being very excited about showing what I had been doing to someone outside the family. I remember one visit in particular when I was asked to read aloud from a book, and the inspector then told me that she had written the book! I was awestruck. I never felt threatened - and if I had, I would look back on it now and think that my parents had handled it wrongly.

piscesmoon · 27/01/2009 22:44

I don't HE, but if I did I would be excited about all the possibilities and quite willing to bore an inspector with my views! I would be able to justify anything we were doing. I think that I would take the initiative and invite them to see something that we were proud of! Your parents seem to have handled it well, Seeker. If you treat someone like the enemy that is what they become.

julienoshoes · 27/01/2009 22:46

Have met a young man presently doing Law at Oxford, without a GCSE or A level to his name Seeker. He used the OU to demonstrate that he was able to study to the appropriate level.

Re:
Un-announced door-step visits.
Insisting on Home Visits.
Insisting on seeing the child.
Insisting on seeing work.
Insisting on seeing a time-table of work.

Onward said "I know plenty of children- shy, with SN, just quite private people, or with fear of strange adults brought on by awful school experiences - for whom compulsory interviews with LA officials would be completely traumatic."

All of the above applied to our children-and I listened to them saying that they didn't want to meet with the LA, that they were fed up with being judged at school and didn't want to be judged in their home lives, now they had finally gained peace and happiness again.

The LA could not see any of our children's 'work' -until they started on their A Level/OU courses there was no 'work' to be seen.
We didn't use any workbooks and had no formal lessons at all. None.
They followed their own interests and mostly didn't write anything down-except of course things like, the story line/characters in the Fantasy Role play my son was involved in. Or the diary my elder daughter wrote. Stuff like that. But those were and are private. I wouldn't insist on the showing it to me let alone to an inspector. It is their intellectual property not mine, it is not for me to give it away.

And my youngest daughter could not write nor read, nor spell until she was 13 ish.
I did not make her try, I did not make her sound out any words. Nothing.
We have no timetables. We have no routine.
They get up when they choose, they live the life they choose, making choices about each day as it comes.
The only formality to our week were the HE meetings and music/singing/dancing lessons and choir.
The only thing planned for the whole year were these and the home ed camps and gatherings we attend.

How would that look to a anti HE inspector? Or even one who approves of families who do 'school at home' but not autonomusly educating families?
How would that look to someone who thinks it is reasonable to demand to see a timetable of work?
How would that look to someone insisting on seeing work?

Instead of formal stuff, we let her education run ahead, watching TV and DVDs, endless talking and purposeful conversations took place. I read to my daughter and she listened to story tapes, to enthuse her with a love of novels.
We were out and about as they chose, going to home ed meetings and workshops and to galleries/museums/theatres etc. Whatever and how ever they chose, when they chose it.
Seems to have worked well for the children though. Even the one who could not read/write/spell at 13 is reading very well now- reading the likes of Shakespeare/Oscar Wilde and other classics as well as more modern stuff.
She spells pretty damn well too, only occasionally needing help.
She is fascinated now by the spellings of words and their root and language base. I am firmly convinced she would have ended up loathing reading like every other adult dyslexic I know who was forced to do so as a young child.
She also did damn well in her first OU course and can be said to be studying to University level one now apparently.

I know you were home educated but I don't know how much you know about autonomous home based education?
The new Alan Thomas book would be a good place for anyone wanting to know more about this very efficient way of educating a child.

I am fighting very hard to stop two children from seperate families from being returned to school, in a nearby LA, who are both delivering a suitable education, but boy are the LA causing trouble.
This particular LAs re demanding all sorts of ultra vires demands of these families and are not following the Government guidelines at all.

seeker · 27/01/2009 22:55

Well, the young man you know is very lucky, julienoshoes.And I suspect he is the exception that proves the rule - and was so incredibly bright that Oxbridge wasn't stupid enough to risk losing him. I can assure you that my niece was no so lucky. She is bright, but not exceptional and she tried very hard to overcome her lack of GCSEs but to no avail.She is now in the position that she is in her early 30's and still at the beginning of her career - and she will very soon have to choose between having babies or progressing in the law - she does not have the time to do both.

inhindsight · 27/01/2009 23:36

SEEKER
"Insisting on Home Visits.
Insisting on seeing the child.
Insisting on seeing work.
Insisting on seeing a time-table of work.
Insisting the NC be followed.
Insisting school hours be followed.'

The last two are obviously bonkers - but I actually can't see anything wrong with the first 5."

Ok...If there was an emoticon with an "incredulous" face I'd paste it here.
You obviously have a very limited view of HE.
I know when I'm beat..so I'll leave it there.

seeker · 28/01/2009 06:05

No I don't (have a limited view of home education) I'm not saying that home educated children should be doing a fixed timetable, orbe doing the same as a child at school, or even be doing the same as any other home educated child. But I do think there needs to be some system in place to ensure that they are happy and learning SOMETHING!

Maybe I'm changing my mind about unannounced home visits - although soon schools will have unannounced OFSTED inspections, and at the moment they only have 3 days notice.

The VAST, overwhelming majority of home educators are doing a fantastic job. But some aren't. And there is absolutely no way of knowing without looking which is which.