Is this arrangement normal?

[Kmward36]

I’ve started to become more and more concerned for a close family members education and I’m worried they’re not actually having any sort of education. I just wanted an outside point of view in case this is very normal and I’m bring dramatic.

For context, I have 3 children. My oldest attends a mainstream school (at her request and loves it) and my youngest 2 are homeschooled. We vary our days between home ed groups available around our county, forest school days, a couple of tutors come in weekly and we follow an online curriculum. So we’re very pro home education.

Family member has 2 DD. Both now school age. They used to attend a childminder but now are home educated. They do not go to and home ed groups ( mainly as they don’t think socialising outside of close family is needed and they believe that children that have been vaccinated shed the vaccinations and don’t want to risk picking it up).

they have no resources at home, not even colouring pencils. They’re quite frugal and don’t believe in spending money and kids should have an imagination and play with what they have. But they don’t have books, paper or anything (unless it’s been bought as a gift from us or other family).

they don’t have a routine. They go to bed around 1-2am. Wake up at 11-12 and then just watch tv.

the oldest is 9 and doesn’t know her colours or numbers. She can’t read or write. They keep saying this is normal in Scandinavia but they don’t do anything with them to encourage any learning. Not even trips out.

I’ve brought it up a few times but they get very angry and it’s quite intimidating.

is this ok? Should I leave it alone? If not, how do I intervene?

any advice welcome!

No resources or books. Can't read or write and doesn't know colours or numbers at 9. Spending no money on them. No socialising. Batshit conspiracy theories.

Social services, report them. That's concerning in the extreme. That's not home ed, that's isolating and brainwashing and deprivation.

Thank you!

I did report them to silica’s services about 18 months ago but they closed the case without even visiting them 🤦🏻‍♀️.

ill try again and see what happens.

Social services

That's really unfortunate. It's good that you're willing to report them again. Do you have any kind of relationship or contact with the children? And the adults, come to that? Does anyone, as far as you know?

Are you in England? Report to your LA. They should have a home ed department who monitor this to make sure children are receiving education. If you want to PM or state what LA I can help direct you.

Hi, I agree I would call your LA and report to social services but also the EHE team, it’s possible the EHE team is not aware of the family if they have always home educated and never been in school.

I agree with everyone else. This doesn't sound like a normal home education set up. Please report to their local LA EHE team, so that they can be contacted. If the LA decide that the children aren't receiving a suitable education, then they can start the School Attendance Order process. I would also contact social services again, on the basis on educational neglect.

The home schooling set up you are giving your children sounds amazing and they are clearly having a fantastic start in life.
The other situation you describe rings massive alarm bells. So so often when children are withdrawn from school for EHE there is an inability to meet either or both of their safeguarding or educational needs. In this case it sounds very much like both. It’s also very easy for them to drop off the radar.
I second other poster’s recommendation of the LA EHE team but please don’t give up until you get some satisfaction.

Hi everyone,

thanks for the feedback. I’ve contacted social services and the local authority and have been told that there is no set curriculum to follow with home ed and is completely child led. There is also no need to meet the family / child in person to review how home education is going. They said it’s up to the family how they educate the children…

social services said they would follow the decision of the local authority and will not follow up.

feel like I keep hitting a brick wall 🤦🏻‍♀️

Aren't they supposed to follow some sort of curriculum,?? When I home educated my son we had regular contact from the education department at the local council. However he had been in mainstream school but left because of mental health problems. I wonder if no one is concerned because they have never been on the radar so to speak,??

If the eldest is 9 and does not know colours or numbers this would suggest significant special needs.

Early years settings are generally working on colours at pre school age and most children start school knowing them. Ditto with numbers.

It's quite common for children with significant special needs to be home educated because mainstream does not meet their needs.

It may be that she is at an appropriate educational level given her special needs.

I worked in a special needs hub within a mainstream school and we had students each year who could not read and write. It is reasonably common. In nearly all cases this was due to significant disability.

If you’re in England, have a look at your LA’s Home Ed policy. National guidelines state that the LA has no specific duty to monitor home schooling, but is entitled to do so in order to fulfil its statutory duty of ascertaining children in the area who are not receiving a suitable education.
Unless they have firm evidence to the contrary, it seems reasonable that a concern expressed by a close family member should alert them to the possibility that a suitable education is not being received, and prompt them to make informal enquiries.

I think you should pitch this to social services as an issue beyond education, because that's only part of the picture. At this level, it's neglect:
-no education
-very limited socialisation opportunities
-no routine
-no toys or stimulation
-extreme health anxiety

Do they ever see any professionals?

Even this might not be enough, they might still not meet the threshold for assessment, but it's harder for social services to ignore.

Surely if you home educate yourself then you know there is no need to follow a curriculum and no need to meet the LA in person?

Parents do have to provide a suitable education though, and the LA has a duty to make enquiries and ensure they are doing that.
If you gave the family's details to the EHE department they will follow up with the parents.

it’s on option to meet with the local authority here, which I do. I just didn’t think they’d allow as little contact as filling in a form. They have follows up today with a phone call and closed the case.

Although there is no need to follow a set curriculum, they do need to provide education. I just feel sorry for the children but I don’t think there’s anything else I can do

Have you thought of contacting your MP?

If it’s a close family member have you thought of trying to help and support? Buy some art supplies or books, spend time with them as colours etc are quick and easy to teach.

How can a kid of 9 not know colours? That doesn't even make sense unless they're registered blind. This is really awful.
If SS are deeming it reasonable, ie not abusive, then I'm flabbergasted. They won't be able to progress in life without interacting with other kids.
If you're close enough to them can you gently sneak in reading and literacy and basic skills with them when you visit or ask them round yours? How could someone not want their children to learn?

I do think there must be some level of special needs since the nine year old doesn't know colours or numbers. Those are concepts kids pick up through everyday conversation, even if they only associate with their own family and even if no one is explicitly teaching them. TV would certainly have exposed them to that too. My unschooled child with a learning disability did not grasp numbers at five, but did by nine.

An inability to read or write at nine is broadly within the normal range for an unschooled child and is not necessarily an issue.

The lack of resources in the house seems like a problem to me, given that the kids don't go out much into the wider world. They can't learn through exploration if there's little to explore. You say that extended family have given gifts of books etc which presumably the parents haven't actually rejected even though they think them unnecessary. So maybe this is the best way forward for you: keep sending them books, art supplies, and so on?

NSPCC might be an option. I'm guessing they'd also contact social services on the kids' behalf.

Surely if they went to a childminder they would have had some early years education. This sounds more like a SEN issue. SS will have access to all the info and if they’ve signed the family off stop making their life more difficult with more reports ? Support if you want to but don’t make things harder for them

100% not SEN

Shes a lovely, curious girl just hasn’t had any guidance or help. She knows the words for colours but not in for the right colour. For example calls yellow pink. Knows some numbers, not in the right order etc. She can’t read at all but does write the odd letter down including part of her name. I just feel like she needs to be sat with and for you to go through things with her but she isn’t. They don’t even read to her. She has learnt from television, just very odd things. Lots of American vocabulary. Lots of information about sea creatures and she dreams of going to Sydney (Finding nemo is a regular film).

I do buy as much as I can for them. I often sneak things in through saying there was an offer on if I got two etc so here’s one for you. I try and take them out as often as I can, it’s just difficult as I can’t fit them and my children in one vehicle. Usually need my husband to be free as well.

I do as much as I can education wise when I see her, I think I’ll just have to increase that time somehow and squeeze what I can into those hours!

I know you are saying not SEN but in my experience if a child of 9 makes a mistake and is corrected they will learn from that so a child with the difficulties you describe it does sound like there could be some underlying issues. You sound as if youre trying yout best to help and if the professionals involved have no concerns then there must be more to it that you haven’t been told ? Hopefully the family are getting support somehow but maybe haven’t felt able to disclose it to family yet ?

They don't have to do trips out, home ed groups, agree with vaccination, bedtimes or have a routine, so there is no point in bringing up those.
They do not need to actually 'teach' anything, although they do need to 'provide an education' so if they aren't teaching then they would need to be able to show that they were providing opportunities for child-led exploration or similar.

They do need to provide opportunities for socialisation (same age cousins seen regularly is fine), and resources other than TV (which can be one form of education, but generally wouldn't be seen as a full provision). If they are relying on unschooling and child-led learning I would expect there to be more resources around for inspiration rather than less (though maybe of the junk modelling type rather than workbooks).
They do need to provide access to literacy and numeracy learning, though these can be indirect (famously, weighing and doubling through baking, etc) - again, I'd expect lots of books or library visits even if there wasn't a lot of grammar.

So the lack of books and pencils etc is probably the key concern here from the pov of the LA, assuming they don't use the library a lot.

Is this serious enough to count as neglect? A different route to go down rather than home ed.