What do I really truly think about schools?

[emmaagain]

In response to a discussion with AbbeyA in another thread, but I can't cope with these Byzantine conversations-go-everywhere thread.

I'll try to be very succinct.

1. Schools are inherently places where people get bullied [it's a feature of closed societies which people have not chosen to enter, like prison. Where outside such societies those who don't fit in with the particular culture can choose to leave it, finding alternative people to mix with, in schools you have to stay in a room with people you dislike day in day out]. If your child is not one of the ones being bullied, you might not notice it, but look around. There is often someone being belittled, whether it is by staff or pupils. Except of course in the perfectly happy skippy schools where it never ever happens (only I'm not sure I believe in them)

1. Schools are inherently and institutionally coercive. The teacher is the authority figure, and right and proper in a room of 30 pupils not all of whom want to do what everyone else wants to do, or even be there. The alternative would be chaos. But I am ideologically opposed to my children spending their days in a dictatorship, however benevolent. (NB I am aware that most will not agree with me about it being wrong to submit children to the dictatorship of adults, at home or at school. I am a libertarian and that's an unusual stance. But I am trying to express my objections to the institution of school and this is a large part of my moral objection)

1. Schools have really weird cultures which don't reflect the world outside at all (asking permission to speak or urinate? Eating on someone else's timetable? Stopping an activity when someone else says it's time to move on rather than because you've finished?)

1. Schools, by definition, cannot enable a child to learn in the most efficient manner, as responsive to their ability and interests. Because there is a national curriculum. Because there are so many children for each adult - there's no way there could be a truly personalised curriculum. Educational professionals do their bets, I know, to respond to the needs of each child, but there's no way they're going to come close to what a parent can do, just by definition.

Who has said they are absolutes though OMDB? DS1 has a formal learning programme at home as well, that his school is well aware of, that we video and show to school. It's designed to compliment rather than duplicate what he does at school and it all works very well. I send comments in via the home school book, they send comments back.

'You can be the best teacher in the world (and I bet you are in the top 1000 ) but you still can't help the children with whatever they are interested in whenever they express an interest, because you have a syllabus and a timetable to adhere to.'

I feel the constraints of the timetable, and the NC

However, in the year 10 group that I taught today the girls would only really be interested in sex and make up.

By donning my jackboots and wielding my riding crop I 'bullied' the little beggers into actually being interested in how their eyes work. And their learned stuff and had fun.

And on balance, that 70 minutes was a damn sight more productive than they would have had left to their own devices!

Ah well, failure to answer a simple question usually means that it's a little close to the bone.

Just take care, when raising children, that you don't dump your own childhood experiences onto them. They were born individuals, you know.

They may not thank you for it.

Desiderata says "So, you've told your kids that the world is a mean, vicious place and they're better off at home with mum.

And I guess they agree with that, because they've got nothing else to go on?"

No. Quite the contrary. I've told my children they don't have to be in mean vicious places and they are better off living in the real world in their childhood, not waiting till adulthood to have freedom of association and freedom of movement :-)

"At home with Mum" is such a misnomer for the HE experience.

The nice thing about HE is that the school-is-great meme is so widely there among friends and relatives and little-old-ladies-at-the-busstop. Don't worry. Our children get plenty of people trying to persuade them that school is really really the best place to be. Some HE children decide to try it and go into school. I have never heard of a HE child who wants to go to school and is not being allowed to. Do you think it's likely? Some quickly come out again, others stick with it. How many parents of schooled children would willingly help their children try out HE, by contrast?

Gimme a chance, desiderata! I've never seen athread grow so fast, and I'm multitasking

I agree with des- i worry that his 'all children must be bullied at school' comes from your own personal experience. Not every child is bullied at school, they really aren't. That's the main message I'm completely not understanding.

What Twiglett said.

I loved school. Really loved it. Was unhappy at home, and just adored school -- I was interested in the work, got lots of feedback for being good at it, and people were generally happy to let me be a nerdy little goody-two shoes.

Dd1 has intermittently been unhappy at school, but has now moved to secondary and is blissful.

Ds loves his school, and dd2 loves hers.

If they were unhappy, it would be different, but they'd be horrified if I proposed to take them out and teach them at home. I don't have an issue with people home edding, if that's what seems right for you. I do have an issue with the assumption that school is inherently a negative experience and all children would be better off at home if only their parents would see the light. That worldview simply does not reflect our experience.

My children definately have the choice about home education-that is why we do it -because they hated school!

I don't know any home ed children personally (and yes I know hundreds in RL) who would choose to go to school.

not saying it never happens just that I don't know of any cases

agree yurt

pukkapatch said school was an absolute yurt! I was just trying to say that it isn't, not to me anyway.

Also, learning doesn't stop at school, some of the arguments on here seem to assume that parents who send their children to school don't do anything with their kids at home. To me DS's school is just some of his learning, he does lots of stuff at home based on his interests, school just suplements his overall holistic learning that takes place every minute that he is awake.

emmaagain- I really find your posts quite narrow minded. I've already said that we seriously considered Home edding ds1. If his school closes (which may happen) then we would home ed whilst fighting for suitable provision (becuase his complex needs are better met in school). Menawhile we do run a home programme as well. Likewise if ds2 and ds3 were suicidal about going to school of course they would be taken out. Currently they love it and would complain if kept home.

there is at least one HEded MNetter who says that she didn't like the experience, and would never do it to her own kids. I can't remember her name

Which of it self proves little other than no one method of education suits everyone.

Which is what some HEdders infer. That HE is perfect, and that schools always bully

Which is bollocks

I know HE kids who have chosen to go back to school. Can think of 3 off the top of my head.

Agree with that OMDB.

here here MB, no one method of education suits everyone, totally agree.

Agree with frogs and MB too.

Sorry what i really meant was I don't know of any home educated children who don't have the choice on whether to go back to school-I do know some who have chosen to go back and some have stayed and some have returned to HE.
But all of the ones I know who are home educated now, don't choose to go to school-otherwise they would be at school.

problem with thinking and typing quicky with such a fest growing thread.

I once taught a lad who was withdrawn from the school because his parents didn't want him to learn about religions other than Christianity.

He didn't have a choice. And was happy in school and was doing rather well.

Yes I can understand that Julienoshoes.

I do think for some children HE can be a saving for them, I think its a valid choice, but I do find it weird to completely write off school as a way of justifying that choice. Do you see what I mean? (I'm not saying you've done that, but it has been done on this thread - eg the OP)

so how many HE's have children who are teenagers then?

Me!
they were 13, 11 and 8 when we deregistered them seven years ago.
Why?

DS1 absolutely adores his school, he's so happy there. He'd never forgive me if we took him out.

Also, he's learning invaluable interpersonal skills, how to deal with different types of people and situation, which I think will stand him in good stead when he's thrust out into the world of work.

Of course there are downsides, depending on what kind of school they go to, but overall I think school is the best place for my boys.

Plus, once they're both full time, I'll be able to increase my earning power.

I think the OP is railing against the way society as a whole questions her motivations in HE

which is fair enough

but I think she doesn't realise that she is doing exactly what she abhors in other people .. she is intimating that those who send their children to school are not doing so with any value judgement .. but that we don't actually understand the theories and concepts

I for one find it fairly patronising

but it's patronising payback .. I assume

i am not anti-teacher or anti-school or anti home-ed. i do think that the education system in this country somehow manages to stifle children's creativity and their innate desire to learn.

i also think that no matter how good the school, no matter how good the teacher. schools do stifle children's creativity, and by forcing them to learn things they may not want to, or be ready to, some children get turned off learning.

school is right for some children. home ed is better for some children. i loved school i couldn't wait to go and on the whole had a fantastic time.

however, i am not convinced i will send my ds to school in sep when he is only just 4, especially if he is not emotionally or socially capable of dealing with a school environment, and especially if he does not want to go.

forcing all 4-5 yr olds to sit in a classroom and all learn the same things at the same times, just seems very mis-guided and in no way catering for each child's individual needs.

Yes I agree Twig. But why do exactly the same as you're complaining about other people doing