What do I really truly think about schools?

[emmaagain]

In response to a discussion with AbbeyA in another thread, but I can't cope with these Byzantine conversations-go-everywhere thread.

I'll try to be very succinct.

1. Schools are inherently places where people get bullied [it's a feature of closed societies which people have not chosen to enter, like prison. Where outside such societies those who don't fit in with the particular culture can choose to leave it, finding alternative people to mix with, in schools you have to stay in a room with people you dislike day in day out]. If your child is not one of the ones being bullied, you might not notice it, but look around. There is often someone being belittled, whether it is by staff or pupils. Except of course in the perfectly happy skippy schools where it never ever happens (only I'm not sure I believe in them)

1. Schools are inherently and institutionally coercive. The teacher is the authority figure, and right and proper in a room of 30 pupils not all of whom want to do what everyone else wants to do, or even be there. The alternative would be chaos. But I am ideologically opposed to my children spending their days in a dictatorship, however benevolent. (NB I am aware that most will not agree with me about it being wrong to submit children to the dictatorship of adults, at home or at school. I am a libertarian and that's an unusual stance. But I am trying to express my objections to the institution of school and this is a large part of my moral objection)

1. Schools have really weird cultures which don't reflect the world outside at all (asking permission to speak or urinate? Eating on someone else's timetable? Stopping an activity when someone else says it's time to move on rather than because you've finished?)

1. Schools, by definition, cannot enable a child to learn in the most efficient manner, as responsive to their ability and interests. Because there is a national curriculum. Because there are so many children for each adult - there's no way there could be a truly personalised curriculum. Educational professionals do their bets, I know, to respond to the needs of each child, but there's no way they're going to come close to what a parent can do, just by definition.

I think what I agree with is that schools are inherantly places where bullying can take place. I don't think bullying always takes place, if that is what the OP was insisting, more that they are institutions that provide situations where potential bullying can occur. I should know, had my fair share og bullying at school.

Oh, answer my bloody question!

You've told your kids that school/the world in general therefore, is a wicked and evil place, so they're better off with mummy?

Am I somewhere close?

because the only childcare i would have been happy with would have been a full time nanny. areally really good one. and that would cost about two grand a month. my take home pay would be much much less than that. so for us, my going to work would be a luxury. it would not benefit the family in anyway.
it really surprises me when people ask that question.

and also, what hasn't been mentioned, is that for some children school is their only safe haven and without it they would suffer even more.

I think that bullying can take place in the home.

But saying that it can happen, and then going on to imply that it is universal/near universal, it a wild distortion of the truth

good decision aviatrix.

I think it really does depend on the people running the school doesn't it and their attitudes!

£2K a month for a nanny? in what parallel universe would this be in then?

I think HE is mainly for people who can't let go of their children and want to be in control of their every movement

I think we're on completely different wavelengths pukkapatch.
I go to work to pay my mortgage (formally my rent). My dh doesn't earn enough for us to be single income family. Going to work isn't a luxury for us, it's a necessity.

if a child were desperatly unhappy in a particular school, yes, they would be involved int ehe decision to change school. but not in wheteher they go to school or not. that is an absolute. just like breastfeeding was, and potty training was.

At the moment, to tell my children school is optional would be a recipe for disaster. It's hard enough getting them out of the door in the morning as it is. Telling them they have to go is a necessary evil, and it's amessage they understand.

At 4,5,6, you don't quite "get" the idea of home education. They'd just see it as "yay! we don't have to go to school!! Mummy and daddy said so!"

But mine are happy at school so I'm sure I don't see it from both sides.

I don't think that school does suit everyone, and for some it's pretty awful. I've had moments of feeling like I don't want dd1 to go, but I also think back to my experience of school - and I loved it, thrived, did well, loved the social side of it, really loved lessons and came away with good grades and good memories of school. If my mum had decided to home educate me I think it would have been a disaster for both of us!

I think that there is definitely a place for it for children who are being really worn down by school, but i don't know if i'd trust myself to do it any better if i'm really honest.

I let my son be involved with the decision of when to potty train, why is that an absolute?

he was too young to ask about starting bfing but he decided when to stop

I think some of us are coming from very different viewpoints and you are making some assumptions which simply aren't true for all of us

Bullying definately doesn't take place in my classroom - I make sure of it!

Do you seriously think that teachers want children to be unhappy so they bully them to make them do their work?

Happy children succeed - if my classroom is a happy place then they will succeed, in their own way and that is what matters to me!

Quite MB.

I guess I agree with the OP's points in theory, in the same way that I agree with communism in theory, it's all very nice as an idea, in practice it's not actually that simple or that black and white.

You can't paint all schools with the same brush any more than you can paint all parents with the same one.

or all children for that matter.

Thing is, how many kids say at some point "I hate school, I don't wanna gooooo"? Just about all of them. I used to say it myself. The bottom line is I was pretty miserable at school, but I'd have been even more miserable at home. But if it works for you, I won't knock it...

for good childcare that i would be happy with, that is the sort of figure i found.
o, i could get it cheaper, if i left them with the childminder who stuck them in the pushchair for three hours whilst she went roudnt he shops, but, since dh earned enough to pay themortgage, i was able to be at home with my babies, and not have to resort to the lowe quality options, which would have been over my dead body.

anyone who says they both have to work to pay the mortgage/rent etc, should be appreciative of the fact that they dont have to fork out for expensive childcare.

Spot on!

No-one can learn if they are unhappy.

When my year 10s left my class today, they thanked me for the lesson and told me to have a nice weekend.

And these are not your buffed up and shiny 'top set' kids, these are quite 'naughty' ones. naughty but nice. And we all had a good time.

And I facilitated their learning.

And still no HEdder has commented on the point that modern teaching is about facilitation of learning

But you're making assumptions about school as well. Really I am open to HE. I mention it when I meet people whose kids are miserable at school because not everyone knows its an option. I tell them about EO, (and because most I meet have kids with SN I tell them about the HE SN email group list as well) BUT some of this stuff about schools on this thread is equally as bigoted as the outrageous stuff you hear about HE.

my kids love school and would go weekends and holidays if they could.
We do lots of teaching/learning at home life is all about learning is it not?
i would not want to take the kids out of school where they are respected and taught, where they spend time with their mates, where they continue to develop and get the specialist teaching that they need.
i don't "get" this culture of teacher bashing and disrespect. funnily enough my three kids show respect and good manners to teachers as do i.

martianbishop yeah - honest debate - bring it on!

(can I just say as an aside what an interesting name you have. Obviously the Church Mission Society has been successful over a wider range than I realised. )

There are good teachers, enthusiastic teachers, kind teachers. I respect what they do. None of the criticisms in the OP are of teachers, they are of the system. You can be the best teacher in the world (and I bet you are in the top 1000 ) but you still can't help the children with whatever they are interested in whenever they express an interest, because you have a syllabus and a timetable to adhere to.

Bullying needn't happen in your classroom. There's plenty of scope in the toilets or the corridors if a particular teacher happens to be good at spotting and stopping bullying.

agree with F&Z, why are they absolutes?

It's an absolute that my son gets an education, how he goes about getting one and what he learns are as much up to him as to me. For now, he wants to go to school, but school isn't the only way to get an education, and his learning doesn't stop there, no child's does.

emmaagain -why do you think every child at school is bullied. I was never bullied at school (nor was I particular miss popularity, & I was swotty, I still managed to enjoy school). Ds2 isn't bullied at school. Where does all this 'everyone must be bullied' come from. I find it a bizarre attitude.

i really must stop posting on this thread, and go sort my dc out. they are still parked in front of the tv.

when to potty train is obviously dependatn on th echild as well, what i meant by those analogies was simply that we as parents make the choices for our children. obviously tkainginto account their feelings etc, but we are the authority figurs who make the decision.

children learn sooo much from school. i think it is wrong to deprive them of that. i know that most hedders are doing there best. but i firmly believe that one person cannot do it alone, even with the best of intentions, it isnt possible.
right, must now go. if you see me here, yell at me.

Boco - well exactly , i dont think its about if school is a good or bad place, its about whether its suits the personality of an individual child or not