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I made the mistake of reading comments from teachers about kids with bad behaviour

56 replies

sapphire777 · 25/03/2021 20:38

I feel so sorry for kids who get labelled bad. This is a big part of why we are home educating. My kids are autistic, ADHD and have severe sensory integration issues. My oldest cannot cope in any environment except home. He's getting better and better at coping at appointments etc but only for 30 mins or so. If I were forcing him to go to school, he'd be a trouble maker, he'd hit and lash out because he was scared. I feel sorry for kids who don't have good support and are misunderstood. I feel sad for teachers and general society who think it's bad behaviour as if the child is really able to control themselves. :(

OP posts:
ForwardRanger · 26/03/2021 00:30

@Perlea

There's never been a better time in history for children with additional needs in education, There's lots of provision made for them in most schools. There will be a few teachers who still believe it's all down to kids misbehaving on purpose but they are quite rare, most teachers today have good SEN training even if they don't specialise in that area of teaching. Having said that if you feel that your children learn best at home then that's fine too.
What?

That things are not as bad as in the past means it's OK? That's pretty tragic thinking.

Jent13c · 26/03/2021 08:08

My friend is a teacher at a school for kids with ASD and the staff to kids ratios are excellent, all the teachers have further degrees in ASD/additional needs related subjects. The facilities are amazing. They have kids from nursery right up to 18 and a lot of their support is based around fostering independence, so in secondary they learn how to get to the shop themselves and all the processes that are involved. Theres a speech and language therapist/OT and physio based in the school. They regularly join with the local school for lessons and projects. A family friend with ASD who was non verbal until he was 7 and required significant support went through the school and at the end was able to pursue a degree with adjustments and is now working as an engineer.

I wouldn't necessarily call that school segregating children, its recognising the additional support that they require and putting the facilities in place to achieve that. My DH is in charge of construction of a local ASN school at the moment and the plans are amazing, they will have therapy pools and accommodation for respite and hoists in bathrooms. It again is being built right next to a mainstream secondary so there will be joint classes and projects and not segregating kids but putting tailored support in place

Fundays12 · 26/03/2021 08:19

Some children are badly behaved as are some parents. One of the mothers living near me is a terrible example behaviour wise to her child as her own behaviour is shocking, she also refuses to discipline him, never tells him no, never takes him in when he is hitting or hurting other kids and tells other kids off after her son has hit them. She really believes it’s other kids or parents fault. He has no additional needs but a mother who will not take responsibility for his behaviour let alone teach him right from wrong. These are the kids some of the teachers will be talking about. It’s nearly impossible for teachers (or anyone) to deal with kids when parents are like that.

My own son has autism and ADHD so I am very aware of his behaviour and manage it. I am equally aware how difficult life can be for families including my own at times. He goes to a mainstream school which has good support. He does well and loves school. The key in all this is the support. All kids should be given the support they need at school but it’s impossible for one teacher to provide it in a class of 25 kids many of whom are high needs. If the education system invested more in support and training no child would be unable too attend school.

aintnocoffeebigenough · 26/03/2021 08:23

There’s no special school places. The LA has actually asked us to stop raising the possibility of moving to a specialist provision during conversations with parents because there’s no chance of getting a place and it’s just false hope.

ThePlantsitter · 26/03/2021 08:32

I think special needs provision is terrible. I've met loads of kids who've been let down by the school system tbh. But I've rarely if ever met a teacher who just thought 'bad behaviour' about a kid with special needs. If you perceive that it is more likely to be frustration at having to deal with an impossible situation and feeling responsible for everyone's education including that of the child with special needs.

There will be exceptions of course, as with everything.

HoldontoOneMoreDay · 26/03/2021 09:21

@Jent13c

My friend is a teacher at a school for kids with ASD and the staff to kids ratios are excellent, all the teachers have further degrees in ASD/additional needs related subjects. The facilities are amazing. They have kids from nursery right up to 18 and a lot of their support is based around fostering independence, so in secondary they learn how to get to the shop themselves and all the processes that are involved. Theres a speech and language therapist/OT and physio based in the school. They regularly join with the local school for lessons and projects. A family friend with ASD who was non verbal until he was 7 and required significant support went through the school and at the end was able to pursue a degree with adjustments and is now working as an engineer.

I wouldn't necessarily call that school segregating children, its recognising the additional support that they require and putting the facilities in place to achieve that. My DH is in charge of construction of a local ASN school at the moment and the plans are amazing, they will have therapy pools and accommodation for respite and hoists in bathrooms. It again is being built right next to a mainstream secondary so there will be joint classes and projects and not segregating kids but putting tailored support in place

That's the dream @Jent13c

The only school like that I can think of anywhere near us is out of area and wouldn't be funded, plus it's boarding. We have, I admit, thought long and hard about it and I still go back and forth if we made the right choice but I just couldn't board DS. He would have seen it as being sent away because he was autistic. Imagine having a school like that on the doorstep...

MildredPuppy · 26/03/2021 12:23

My child was never more segregated than when he was 'included' in mainstream because the environment was so very wrong for him. He ended up sat in a corridor with the least qualified member of staff in the school doing unsuitable work and couldnt join in playtime as there was no support in breaks and his class had moved on developmentally (he used to hide in a ditch). He also didnt have many peers who he could bond with. He is at a special school now, which hasnt gone brilliantly but he is includdd and has a peer group of actual friends.
Genuine inclusion is expensive. It needs lots of qualified staff to design and deliver the curriculumn, not just teachers but OT and SaLT etc and smaller classes for the teacher to manage the range of difficulties. What often happens now is a child is included without the investment so it doesnt work.

MissyB1 · 26/03/2021 12:34

I actually have no idea what point the OP is trying to make here 🤔
Is it that all schools are bad and all children should be home educated?
Is it that all sen children should be home educated?
Is it that all children who behave badly have sen?
Does the OP even know what point they are trying to make?🤷‍♀️

MeanMrMustardSeed · 26/03/2021 12:44

Home education is surely the ultimate segregation.

Toomanymuslins · 26/03/2021 12:46

@Conditionconditioncondition

Genuine question OP

Say I have 30 children in my class
6 have an EHCP
Another 6 are awaiting an EHCP
It's just me and another adult

How, on what planet, do you propose that I provide all 30 children with a lesson that is differentiated, that they can all access, and where they can all make progress?

I’m not meaning to sound contentious here but yes, you could. Not easily but it isn’t impossible either.
Hoppinggreen · 26/03/2021 12:50

Unfortunately if your child is being regularly attacked in school by another child you dont really care why that is.
Knowing that child has SN doesn’t make your child feel less pain or be less frightened of going to school.
While I sympathise with parents of DC who’s SN make them likely to be violent and am appalled at how little help and funding there is for them my priority is and will always be my own child and they deserve to be safe at school so where adequate provision isn’t available Home schooling may be the best option for such children and their peers.

sherrystrull · 26/03/2021 13:25

I find your post very confusing and actually quite offensive. Teachers aren't labelling children as 'bad'. Teachers are trying to do their best while juggling large classes of children with very different needs with minimal support.

10brokengreenbottles · 26/03/2021 13:30

ShakeaHettyFeather if there isn't a suitable school the LA should be providing an EOTAS package - including tuition, therapies and any other provision in section F. You shouldn't be EHE, unless of course that is what you want. Unless a school is wholly independent the LA can still name them even if they object. There isn't a suitable school for DS1 and we have a comprehensive EOTAS package for him.

You have probably already considered them but Breckenbrough, N Yorks and Wilds Lodge, Rutland both offer a wider range of GCSEs, the former also does A levels. As does Gretton school, Cambridgeshire - although I have heard mixed reviews about it. West Heath, Kent also offer more than 2 GCSEs and can facilitate A levels. There's also some of Witherslack's schools (Pontville, Cedar House and Chilworth House) that offer more GCSEs.

Holdontoonemoreday unless a school is wholly independent (i.e. A non section 41 independent) there are only 3 reasons the LA can refuse to name your school preference. Regardless of whether it is out of area if the LA don't have a suitable alternative they will be laughed out of tribunal.

Conditionconditioncondition · 26/03/2021 15:33

@Toomanymuslins

Very few things are impossible.

But I simply do not have to time, or I do have the time but would have to sacrifice cooking dinner/a family/a clean house to differentiate and ensure progress that much, 5 lessons a day, 5 days a week.

Getting teachers to work harder and longer hours does not solve the problem. It merely puts a plaster over it.

sherrystrull · 26/03/2021 16:12

I actually think it is impossible. There is simply not enough of me to go around to ensure that every child in a class of 30 is meaningfully engaged whilst having limited support.

HoldontoOneMoreDay · 26/03/2021 21:49

@10brokengreenbottles

ShakeaHettyFeather if there isn't a suitable school the LA should be providing an EOTAS package - including tuition, therapies and any other provision in section F. You shouldn't be EHE, unless of course that is what you want. Unless a school is wholly independent the LA can still name them even if they object. There isn't a suitable school for DS1 and we have a comprehensive EOTAS package for him.

You have probably already considered them but Breckenbrough, N Yorks and Wilds Lodge, Rutland both offer a wider range of GCSEs, the former also does A levels. As does Gretton school, Cambridgeshire - although I have heard mixed reviews about it. West Heath, Kent also offer more than 2 GCSEs and can facilitate A levels. There's also some of Witherslack's schools (Pontville, Cedar House and Chilworth House) that offer more GCSEs.

Holdontoonemoreday unless a school is wholly independent (i.e. A non section 41 independent) there are only 3 reasons the LA can refuse to name your school preference. Regardless of whether it is out of area if the LA don't have a suitable alternative they will be laughed out of tribunal.

I'm in Scotland, it's not quite the same legally - and it would be very hard to prove current school doesn't meet his needs, because the threshold for 'meeting needs' isn't the same as 'thriving'. And the boarding question would still stand.
HamFisted · 26/03/2021 22:02

@MissyB1

I actually have no idea what point the OP is trying to make here 🤔 Is it that all schools are bad and all children should be home educated? Is it that all sen children should be home educated? Is it that all children who behave badly have sen? Does the OP even know what point they are trying to make?🤷‍♀️
It's a teacher bashing thread.
10brokengreenbottles · 26/03/2021 23:14

Hold, apologies for assuming you are in England.

HoldontoOneMoreDay · 27/03/2021 01:42

@10brokengreenbottles

Hold, apologies for assuming you are in England.
No probs at all! Thanks for your response Thanks
Helenahandbasket1 · 27/03/2021 02:06

I thought ‘inclusion’ was just government spin for ‘saving money by shoving kids with special needs into the local comp’ Hmm

IHateCoronavirus · 27/03/2021 05:14

I have never called a child with SEN ‘naughty’ not have I heard my teaching friends do the same. We live by the rule ‘all behaviour is a communication’.

I have taught in both mainstream and special schools. Far and away the most progress happens in special schools. The happiest faces are in special schools. Everything is a celebration of your child and the community, everything is set up to not only meet their needs, but help them to thrive. This includes that ratio of staff. We gradually work with children to desensitise them to/or find copying strategies to deal with their triggers. We aim to give the child the best chance of independence in the world.

Never in mainstream have we had the time, the facilities, the staff to put in the same level of care. Yes we will do our best with what we have for your child but bare in mind we also have 30+ other children all with their own unique stories to tell, some may have EHCPs , others waiting for theirs, sone might witness domestic violence, others might not know when they’ll next be fed, some may have raised themselves, their parents disengaged and unwilling to set boundaries, others may be being sexually abused. An average class may well have all of the above at any one time. All of these children will be expressing themselves through their behaviour. That is a lot of behaviour to support in one small room and teach at the same time. How does it not impact on the children within it? Are teachers not allowed to express their frustration at that impact after all it is down to them to prove progress?

You have chosen to keep your child at home, which is, as op say, the ultimate segregation. I am not against home education I thought of it for my own.

There are not enough special school places overall. Those who want them can’t access them. Then there is the other issue of stigma, those who need them most won’t access them.
I have taught a child who would have benefitted so much from special school. Mainstream was too much sensory wise for him. He spent his days literally sitting on, me screaming in a high pitched distressed tone like that of a newborn baby, banging his head and rubbing his face on me. When I invariably stood up to support other children he would be some more distressed and follow me trying to climbing me, throwing himself to the floor whenever I couldn’t hold him.
He was still waiting for his EHCP as mum and dad were very much in denial and afraid. We had no official funding for him so we used to beg borrow and steal any TA with an absent child. The lack of continuity meant he only would come to me.

The other children used to zone out because of the noise, a constant high pitched newborn cry. How I taught anything that year is a wonder. He wasn’t the only child with needs. I had a child with an EHCP who needed me to do SALT work with him, I’m ashamed to say we failed all the children that year, not through any fault of our own. How was that situation in anyone’s best interests?

cactuscushion · 27/03/2021 05:49

Ironic that the OP has no issue labeling teachers and making assumptions.

QuidditchQueen · 27/03/2021 05:53

I am a secondary teacher and for a few years did supply in lots if schools including special schools. The children in the special schools really did have gold standard in catering for their individual need - far better than any provision for any pupil on mainstream schools with much better qualified and experienced staff (snd immeasurably better than untrained home ‘schooling’. Anyone who is lucky enough to get their child a place in one should be grabbing it with immense gratitude.
And teachers do not refer to children as ‘naughty’.

ShakeaHettyFeather · 27/03/2021 19:11

@10brokengreenbottles Thank you for this detailed comment.
We have had a reasonably positive trial at one of the schools you mention, but they haven't agreed to be named yet. Others have refused to assess (the ones that have assessed only did when other special schools referred us - before they all said they had too long a wait list) or said he 'wouldn't cope with the cohort' - likely with varying degrees of truth. At the moment Covid is being used as an excuse for everything, so there's one fairly useless tutor. Our tribunal has been delayed yet again in the hope that one school will agree to take him, as otherwise we'll be arguing again against the free school in an office block that doesn't do GCSEs and for tuition and therapy to come to us as you suggest.

The ironic thing is that if he'd had decent support in primary and the school and council hadn't devoted herculean efforts into blocking his EHCP (five staff and two lawyers came to the second tribunal), he might well now be coping in a unit in a mainstream school with some TA support, rather than looking into therapeutic boarding 200 miles from home.

Lougle · 27/03/2021 19:25

I once had a carer say to me that DD1 should stay in mainstream because she 'knew a kid with autism' who was in mainstream and he did fine - all the kids knew that they shouldn't touch his socks when he was changing for PE and he just joined in. I said 'Wow, what high aspirations for DD1 that she, too, can breath the air of the 'normals' as long as they understand that nobody should touch her socks Hmm'

Special schools can be very inclusive. Mainstream schools can try to be inclusive. But don't try to kid me that the year 10, 15 year old kids in mainstream would form a genuine, equal friendship with my DD who is 15 but emotionally like a 5 year old. She still likes Paw Patrol, Justin's house, etc. It's not the same.

Incidentally, home education is just like school. Kids who will do well will do well anywhere. Kids who struggle will still struggle, they've just been removed from the environment that they can't cope with.