The purpose of pre-school, and whether or not to send ds

[EggyBreadAndBeans]

Am I right in thinking that the reasons kids go to pre-school are (a) to give them opportunities to socialise with their peers, and (b) to prepare them for school? And I suppose also (c) to give Mum a break.

Ds has a place to start at our village pre-school in April, which we booked up over a year ago. The thing is ...

Ds doesn't seem to enjoy mixing with his peers that much. He ends up losing his rag (big-time) over toy-sharing, gets frustrated trying to communicate with them, and lately has been asking me to make his two- and three-year-old playdates 'go away' . On the other hand, playing with older kids and adults (which ds gets to do a lot) brings out the absolute best in him, and he loves it. So that brings (a) into question.

Also, we've been looking into home education since ds was about one and of course, if we decide to go down that route, then there's no need to worry about preparing him for school (b).

And we lean towards attachment parenting, so I'm not interested in having ds prised off me in tears in order for him to 'get used' to pre-school.

I feel under pressure to send ds to pre-school - it seems expected either these days, or at least where we live - and yet all of the above begs the question, should we just take ds's name off the list and carry on as we are? If we do this, and decide on conventional schooling, will he settle in OK without pre-school? Thanks.

(Also posted on Pre-school board.)

Thanks for all the replies. Interesting. (Oh, and double posting was to maximise differing perspectives ? just didn't think to link to only one thread at silly o'clock last night .)

Hmm. Well, firstly to clear up a few points of confusion. Ds (who is 2.8 btw, but often confused for a year or more older by strangers) has fantastic people skills and social confidence with pretty much everyone not in the toddler/pre-schooler bracket; that covers, ooh, about 90 different ages, and just slips up on about three . Babies, and kids upwards of about four ? ds is as happy as Larry around.

And in fact, ds isn't even awful around his peers: he already sees four regularly through playdates, and shares well-ish and communicates brilliantly with them a lot of the time. It's just that his worst social behaviour is consistently in the company of toddlers and pre-schoolers. From observing ds and friends on playdates, it seems that they simply reinforce toddler-esque behaviours in each other ? toy grabbing, pushing and shoving, frustration and anger outbursts - while spending time with older children allows more civilised social behaviour to develop spontaneously through modelling. And another thing , empathy is the foundation of sharing, compassion, humanity ? and it's generally thought that kids don't begin to empathise (much) until age three or four. My mum and dad's generation didn't go to pre-school at all, they started school at five. It seems like kids start everything so early now; as though our culture expects two-year-olds (and three-, even four-) to be able to be happy and secure away from their families, to share, to empathise and demonstrate other 'grown-up' behaviours. They're two, fgs!

Hmm.

I checked up on responses stupidly late last night, before going to bed, and tbh was a little disappointed at first. I'd hoped more Home Ed board posters would be a bit more hard core on the socialisation front ; more anti-lumping-kids-the-same-age-together at any age. Sooo relieved to read Runnerbean, Julienoshoes, Humphrey and terramum's posts this morning; I'd thought until then that I clearly must be going mad ...

Runnerbean, yes, ironically, I do feel under peer pressure to send ds to pre-school ... and not only from Mumsnet! We live in a tight-knit village community with its own pre-school and school, and I think for any family to not only not send their child to the local pre-school, but not to any pre-school, would invite a flurry of judgements: over-protective, too soft, molly-coddling, withdrawn, weird, etc. Even if, ideologically, I'm 100% pro unschooling and think it the best thing for ds, of course I wouldn't enjoy being judged in this way by our community. [Why do we live here?! Seemed a good idea at the time ...]

Anyway, for now, I'm thinking it wouldn't do ds any harm to not go to pre-school, providing we still have playdates and get in touch with our local home ed group. However, because he has a place and we're not certain we'll home school, I do think it makes sense, as many of you said, to give it a try in April. If ds doesn't settle, we'll either try again when he's older (3.3 or 3.7), or not at all.

And terramum, please can I have articulation lessons?! I can never communicate that clearly and concisely my views on education.

Thanks, all. And sorry it's so long; lots of posts to reflect on.

Aloha - My DS plays with lots of other children & does loads of "activities"...but he also plays with older & younger children, interacts with a wide variety of adults...all without going near a pre-school! I really dont see the need to send him & restrict his experiences

Eggy - thanks for that!

I just honestly don't see how sending a three year old to play and learn for 2.5 hours a day is 'restricting' his experiences. Did you see my post about reading The Little Red Hen, then growing seeds in jam jars, crushing wheat to see how flour is made, baking bread then having a tea party with bread and butter with lots of little chums, and then making a play of it. They also made a play of the Enormous turnip with lots of children being different characters. Ds loved that. And that's aside from the waterplay, sand play, dolls, construction toys, painting, outdoor climbing frames and play house and daily changing outdoor activities such as obstacle races and inside dressing up, a wendy house that is set up to be different things every week - sometimes a house, sometimes a shop, sometimes a vet sometimes a restaurant etc etc a book corner, potato printing... everything you would expect from an Enid Blyton/lentil eating childhood really.

My son attends our local playgroup x1 morning per week, he trots in happily and enjoys his stay but I doubt he'd be keen to go there every day of the week. Unless I was working it would seem pointless to me (like I was just palming him off).
I'm fairly sure about HE and will always find groups/gatherings/etc to be certain my children get chance to mix with others of 'similar ages'.
Last year, I phoned round x7 local schools, only 1 said it made no difference whether children had been to a preschool, that it's all new to them anyway. All the rest thought they should have done at least 6 months in pre-school. I thought that reception was for settling in.
In September last, I knew 2 boys who started school, both had been in pre-school since very young, both at different pre/primary schools. Both had terrible times adjusting ? extreme really ? they just expected school to be fun... and it wasn't. Though they seem to have instutionalised them nicely now, one we hardly ever see because he's too tired to play after school and his reading! What a shame at 4.5.
Must go my little girl is trying to shut my laptop. Sorry I hope this post makes sense!!

'Institutionalised'

Aloha - we can & do all of this at home or with friends and relations ...to use some of your examples...we read with DS throught the day & he helps us on our allotment every weekend and will soon have his own bed to plant up as he wishes....he helps DH make the bread every evening and helps us with preparing & clearing up meals...he has access to sand & water play, dolls, numerous construction toys, books, dressing up clothes, jigsaws, a "home" corner with different role-playing type toys...as well as garden toys like slides, sit n ride cars as well as a nice playground up the road with climbing frames, swings, slides etc and we do lots of different crafts with painting, play dough, glueing etc...

...and I get to watch him and join in with him playing...why hear about it second hand when you can be there & see that happy, excited or amazed face for yourself

Hmmm, I think - in a madly non-HE way, obviously - that actually small kids really like going off and being small kids together without adults and/or a vaguely benign non-related eye on them. En masse. In a faintly pack sort of way.

But hey, my children are the dull-eyed cannon-fodder churned out by the dark satanic institutions of Lewisham's educational establishments.

Because sometimes I think they actively enjoy doing things independently of you. They are proud of going to 'school' (all 2.5 hours of it) and like hanging out with people that haven't necessarily been hand-picked for them, and without your supervision. Even now, at home, my five year old and two year year old love to play together - they don't always WANT me to play with them or supervise them or watch their shining faces (I have to listen behind the door ) because they like being a little gang of two.

x-posts.

And he can still do all those things with you AND go to pre-school for 2.5 hours a day!

...sorry almost forgot one of the best bonuses of HE ...we can enjoy all of these things without being restricted to someone elses timetable...he stops for snacks & meals when he is hungry & doesnt have to stop playing because its the end of the session - he can carry on until he wants...whether thats 2 hours or 2 minutes

you could always approach the pre-school and see whether they would accept him on a more part-time basis. my dd goes 4 afternoons a week, which i think gives her a good balance. not all schools are happy to do this, in fact it helped us to decide when one (the supposedly "better") school refused point blank, while the other had no problem with it at all.

Agree with Aloha, and also think that it's a bit hysterical to think that 2.5 hours a couple of times a week is limiting experience.

Small children are unpredictable and barbaric. It's part of their charm.

I find my kids sometimes have to stop playing because we are going to the bank or something utterly dreary like that.
Oh, and despite the fact I have a two year old, I don't have waterplay, a sandbox, painting, jungle animals in exciting scenes, different art activities such as making chinese lanterns or collages blah blah simultaneously set out fresh every single morning, or a giant indoor playhouse transformed weekly into different role-playing settings and complete with children to play with. But hey, maybe I'm just really really crap.

"And he can still do all those things with you AND go to pre-school for 2.5 hours a day! "

Thats my point though - why go to pre-school at all if it doesnt offer anything different. All it does is restrict what you can do in the day because of its prescribed timetable...

interesting study about the importance of play with preschooler peers in the development of empathy etc

Well, it does. it offers them the chance to go to preschool, a different experience to being at home and one that lots of children really enjoy.

pre-school is brilliant - in fact, I'd say it was (for both my children) the making of them at that age. I've got one sociable child and one not so. The not so sociable child (dd) did a lot of observing in pre-school but adored all the activities they did and my sociable one (ds) found himself a little crew of mates (all little girls) and spent most of his time dressing up.

They did painting, the teachers filled a bath with spaghetti and they all got to swish it around and make a mess, they covered the floor with paper and drew around each other - all things I would never have done at home.

I really can't see the harm in trying it out. Look out for a warm and friendly environment. I still look back at those times with a little tear in my eye (I know, I'm a soppy one) because they had so much fun!

And it offers them a group of other children their own age. Which I still think is important. And fun.

My 2 play lots together and I keep out of their way. And I they love doing things without me at times, and get chance to play with other children. The 'pack/gang' feeling is good - but certainly doesn't need to be everyday at their age, or a big part of any day.
I don't play constantly with them, I have other things to do, that would I'm sure be easier if they weren't around, but housework is compatible with children and other things just take longer!
I don't watch their every move, or comment/praise endlessly.
HE will give my children more chance to be with older children more often and without 'adults' constantly supervising which is school all the way through.
And I certainly won't hand pick their friends ? HE will give them a wider selection of children to form friendships/relationships with, especially as we will travel to different towns/cities.

Aloha -Im not saying Ive set my home up like a pre-school...I helped run one many years ago so I know just how much effort & money you would need to do that properly....I just have toys available for DS to choose from...Im not a perfect mum or overwlemingly rich...far from it...I just have an annoying inability to say no when I get offered toys by people who have no use for them & parents & ILs who buy far too much carp for DS

....I would also like to point out that I didnt say that I actually had all those toys...just that DS had them available to him...I have made a conscious effort not to have things that MIL has. She is a childminder & so has a LOT of toys . We go round to hers at least twice a week so DS gets to play with them a lot so no need for me to have them as well...saying that though a lot of them so seem to end up at my house....combination of me not being able to say no when MIL says "I dont want/need this anymore do you want it" & DS "borrowing" things

Look, I am sure keeping your kids at home is fine for them, and they'll be happy. Just that I think some people may have very inaccurate stereotypes about what happens at a preschoo. If you give your child a chance to try it out, they may love it. And if they don't, then they don't have to go. At ds's preschool I never saw any children 'prised off in tears' to go to nursery. Honest. They all skipped in cheerfully. For three year olds it can be a hugely enjoyable adventure, however you plan to educate them in future.