Feel like sending kids back to school even though I don't :(

[kettleoffish]

Long post... but appreciate help with this.

DD1 coming to 12 soon and I took her out to HE 4 years ago as she was having school refusal, phantom tummyaches, headaches, tears, bullying, etc. from the end of year 2 onwards. She has always been an extremely quiet child in nursery, school and other social situations. She would only say yes, no, hi and bye on occasion, and if she really absolutely has to, for example asking to go to the loo, asking for food at school dinners, etc. She never ever got to the point of being able to chat freely or share her thoughts and ideas freely. Until now, she still has to be pressed to blurt out a one to three word answer. When I took her out to HE I thought she would improve but there is little improvement. The only improvement I think which has been quite big is that when she was in school she wouldn't even join in any group activities so she would beg me to stop taking her to ballet, swim classes, Brownies, etc. After HE she became a bit less scared of people and asked to go to swim classes, holiday clubs, etc. But she still is unable to converse freely or share her thoughts or carry on a conversation. Not even with the same people she's been seeing once every week.

She is extremely chatty at home and likes playing make believe, putting on shows and singing with her siblings. She is into pop music and dressing up like any normal girl. It just frustrates me so much that she can't seem to make that step from simplistic one to three word answers to conversing like a normal child does. I've always taken her to lots of after school activities... some times almost every single day. Nothing seems to work. Nothing.

What's worse is that my younger children aged 6 and 8 who have been HE from the start are now also becoming like that. It's like my worst nightmare. I am getting a lot of negativity from family and friends about HE ing because my kids are 'quiet'. Even my husband isn't really on my side as he has always been of the "send them off to school and forget about it" camp. To be honest I think they got it from him somehow as he is not much of a talker and is rubbish at making or keeping friends. I am very chatty myself and have friends and I thought my kids would learn by example seeing me interact with people all the time. I try to introduce them to my friends' kids by my kids tend to just go all 'quiet' and then it's embarrassing for me as well as the friends' children, who eventually just give up on them somehow and lose interest.

I feel like sending them all to school now but I know it is inevitable they will get bullied for what they are. Being mixed race themselves complicates the situation as well as my husband's side thinks there is nothing wrong with this behaviour... which may be true, in their own country but not here. I feel a bit like a cop out and want some advice before I decide whether to put them back in school.

Would your DC like to go to school ,that's the point really . I would ask ,particularly the younger 2 if they would like to give school a try . I think its difficult to HE without the support of both parents and very difficult indeed if its not really what you want to be doing .

My youngest says no to school. My middle child is happy to give it a go, my eldest is just so so with it... in a sort of resigned to fate way. She is passive, and in social situations just allows other kids ?even a 5 year old son of my friend's) to boss her around, and she told me she "can't help it" the way she is when she can't converse freely outside. I'm worried she will become depressed. Right now she is too much immersed in playing with the little siblings. They are like best friends to her, even though there are obvious problems that stand out to me - difference in maturity levels, etc. My younger children don't even always like her company that much. My middle child says she's annoying a lot of the times, my youngest thinks so too. She also winds them up sometimes too and gets frustrated that the younger ones don't seem to get things that she does.

I just feel she should be making friends with her peers, not the little children, but she seems so helpless to do so herself, and she's coming to the age now where adults can hardly influence her chances of befriending peers. Somehow I feel school may not be the best solution but then neither is homeschooling. She has low self esteem as well but has always done, I suspect. She was always so quiet even in school and had problems making and keeping friends.

I am almost certain I will be sending my middle child to school. She wants to give it a go, at 8 years of age. She never wanted to before but now she says she wants to. She is also the most "social" of the lot and a bit kooky but likeable. My youngest is 6 and still not very ready I think. He cries easily, hurts himself easily as he is a bit clumsy, has a temper, and well... he is also very bright but he hasaspects that make me think he might have some kind of SEN... maybe ADHD, OCD or even ASD, but I am thinking maybe start him at school when he's 7, although I am envisioning getting called by his teachers to take him home early because he is inconsolable or flew into a rage.

Sorry, I don't really have any advise as I am new to HE but my son who is now 13 is very quite and he as never been home ed.

My son is very similar to your DD, my son never even said hello when others said Hi to him, he would also look the other way and pretend he didn't hear them. He doesn't even make eye contact and we were constantly telling him to respond back to people and look at them when he is talking / mumbling.
He is now in high school and made friends but even when they call for him to go out he doesn't go and on the odd occasion I have forced him to go.
I tried lots of different activities but he would also hate them because he is so shy and would rather be on his own.

In the end I stopped all the activities and told him what ever he decides he wants to do I will support him but he must make the decision for himself.
He hasn't come up with anything yet but his dad got him a job in a paint spray garage over the summer. We didn't know if he would like it but he loves it.
He is now a different person he send himself to work in the morning makes his own way on the bus and loves the independence it gives him. He is with adults all day and would prefer to work there full time and not go back to school.

In all this I realised that not everyone is the same and some people are quite and like there own company and there was no point me forcing him to do what everyone else is doing.
I am sure he will find his own way of embracing the world when he is ready.

Out of interest how is your eldest with adults ,my eldest ( who was fully schooled and is now a trainee teacher) was never very good with children his own age but was great with adults - I think he has always been a bit different and very mature ,once he got to about 16/17 he started making friends and getting along with his peers .do you go to HE groups ? If the finances would allow could the eldest perhaps do an online school ,where you do get interaction but not face to face .

She won't speak that much with adults either, but not to the point of being rude. She will say thank you, etc. if she realizes she has to. Some adults like her for being a good quiet "little lady"... because she is very composed and gentle in demeanour. I just find her peers tend to not gel with her very well. They are giggly, chatty, and she doesn't fit into it, and they often stay separated - she'd be with the younger kids or with her family, and the teens kind of group together and banter amongst themselves. I don't know if it bothers her though and maybe it does. She doesn't befriend boys easily either (in fact she finds it harder to relate to them). Because of that, I don't think the high school environment is really for her.

Online high school seems to be the best compromise and she herself has been asking to do it rather than go to regular school, but money is a bit tight and I would consider it if that is really the solution, but I don't think that would get her out of her shell though. She has been playing Minecraft and Stardoll and other online social sites, chatting to other people on Minecraft but that hasn't seemed to influence much of her real life social skills for the better. Perhaps she is just always going to be like this, like Sincara's DS. My DH is also a 'man of few words' but somehow for a man, that's almost socially acceptable, but for a female, it's different somehow. I will just have to plod on and see what else can be done.

I was going to ask if she liked video games. I was a very antisocial child. I am still a very antisocial adult, but if you looked at my life you wouldn't notice because I am always seeing people - over the years I have picked up a lot of very close and longterm friends - I still don't relish meeting new people. I hate speaking on the phone with a passion, and don't enjoy face to face conversations with people I don't know well, but I find online chatting very low pressure. Does she have regular minecraft friends? Maybe you could help her organise a meet up? Meeting my online gaming friends was a revelation to me - we all laughed at the same jokes, although we'd never met we had a whole ready formed relationship, and if conversation ever dried up we could talk about the game. Now that I have children I have no time for gaming, but some of those online pals I still count among my close friends and we see each other regularly although we live quite far apart. Online gaming can be fantastic for making friends from other countries and cultures too

She does like games but tend to prefer the ones with a social outlet. I think it's clear she really wants company and friends. Once a HE kid she met on Minecraft offered to Skype her but she just said very little during the session and they never Skyped again. Now they say that they no longer meet any regulars or ones they click with when they go on servers. They said that those they were friends with have all stopped playing and it's new people all the time. They want consistency in friends on Minecraft but can't seem to find any nowadays, so they just play by themselves. (Both my two older ones)

I think an online school like interhigh might provide a bit more consistency in friendships but again, if my kids just say very little when people are talking online with them, they will find it hard to keep those friends. They seem to have social anxiety. Takes them ages to get used to someone and feel safe enough to speak out. Even then I have never seen them speak to any of their "friends" (all people they know by association, like cousins, my friends' children or the neighbours' kids) in the same free, relaxed way that they do with each other.

Maybe you don't see it precisely because you are watching? Some people just don't like an audience for their conversations. Perhaps they are more relaxed when alone?

Do your children want help with becoming more outgoing, or are they happy as they are? I think it's really important a) to try to find ways to help people who aren't happy in how they interact with the world and b) to Back.Off. when people are unconventional but comfortable in their own way of being :)

My middle child is getting bored with her siblings at home. She finds the oldest annoying and the little brother doesn't share a lot of the same interests with her. She tells me she wants friends. As they grow older, I find that they don't get along that well at home anymore. Squabbles, fights, etc. My eldest wants friends but is too scared to talk to new people so she'd rather stay at home. My son, well, he's six and he does take an interest in other kids, especially boys, when he's at cubs, but once again, too scared to talk. He tries to imitate those boys sometimes but he's so shy when he's with them that they don't really seek him out for games. My kids aren't introverted. They talk excessively at home. It's non stop all day long and super rowdy. Plus they mostly hate solitary activities. They prefer to do things together, or with others. When we go to HE meets, they just stay amongst themselves and be super quiet with other kids but would talk and play amongst themselves mainly. Then of course there is the inevitable squabbling again, and a lot of these stem from an inability to accommodate each other's shortfalls. For example, eldest isn't really kind to youngest, and youngest gets upset easily, which then escalates. Middle child likes some thing which eldest finds babyish then eldest teases middle child non stop about it until middle child snaps and starts hitting eldest and then eldest gets to hitting her back, which ends in tears.

And all my attempts at getting them to play or interact more with other kids fail. I realise at some point it's up to them to want to do it. I can't do it anymore and I feel it's not helping.

My youngest doesn't like the eldest either. She always makes him cry somehow. But then again he is and has always been a bit difficult for others to manage. Only I know how to manage him. In general, my younger kids aren't really fond of the eldest, and the eldest knows it, but she is sticking to them because ?I think? they are her only company at home and even when they're at HE meets she does not branch out to talking to other kids, so she ends up sticking to them. She does not vocalise her deepest feelings ever, not even to her siblings or me and DH so what she really thinks inside is anyone's guess. Even if I try to prod her she just says she doesn't know or she can't help it and she doesn't know why.

I wouldn't mind if the kids all really get along well at home and are content with this... but they all seem rather discontent and telling me they wish things could be better, etc. They feel bored but scared of other new kids.

any chance of a kindly older child to come and hang out with your oldest, with an explicit (to the older child) mission of helping her develop her social confidence? (I know several 14-16 year olds who would totally do this, especially if you paid them a little thank you - important for you to be elsewhere in the house not eavesdropping IMO).

Do you have things like the siblings Without Rivalry book?

And... important for you to find a way of helping them help themselves without being the rescuer.

"what do you think would help you overcome your shyness enough to make friends?"

Can you find other people with very shy children in your area? Sometimes if there are two families who are willing to put the investment into meeting twice a week for 3 months, eventually the children start clicking and playing together and stop being shy around each other, and then THAT gives the children in both families a starting point for branching out socially.

Kettle the first thought that sprung into my mind was have you considered a possible speech and language disorder?
It might be worth speaking to a speech and language therapist.
Of course she may just be very shy but the degree that you are talking about seems pretty extreme espically as you are quite social yourself.
I have found afasic to be a useful charity. It's possible to speak to their helpline and get some advice.

Hello OP

To me H.ed aside for a minute, your dd sounds as though she has her dads personality. There is nothing wrong with this if it makes her happy and I will add what somebody else touched on, maybe she wants to be quiet with friends.
My dd is the most out going and confident child I know but in some situations is really reserved to the point of appearing introvert. She has friends who are quiet too and sometimes I forget they are there.
I would ask them what they mean by better?
Also agree with asking what they think would help with shyness.
Drama groups or a musical activity are brilliant for this type of thing.

Asking a 14 - 16 year old to help eldest develop socially is a good idea ommward,
I wish I'd done that earlier. We've had to move recently to a completely new place far from the previous, where we had been for many years and built up a support network in. I could have found someone there.. I think! We're going to have to move again soon but this would be a permanent move, so we may wait until then before finding someone. It won't be easy though as I know it took us many years to build up a support network in a new place. Which is part of the reason why my kids even "regressed" a little. I mean, when we moved here recently, I've had some embarrassing encounters with friendly locals who tried to say hi or ask simple questions to my kids to get to know them a bit better, but my lids just stared back without replying. It's so exasperating. It's like how my eldest was at 8 when I had just taken her out of school to HE because of her problems at school. I am pretty convinced it is some sort of social anxiety or selective mutism. They've at least been okay with responding to strangers in the previous place we lived, but now it's like they've gone almost completely mute. Needless to say I had locals who, when they found out we were HE, did not seem convinced. It is a village too and nobody HE here so the pressure on me to send them to school is bigger. We previously lived in a large city and there were a sizable number of HE families. We are moving to another large city soon where there are more HE families... hopefully that will be for the better, otherwise I really am not sure what else to do.

I really agree with you that I have to help them without appearing to be the rescuer. I will also get that book you mentioned. Funny how when I was growing up with 2 other younger siblings, there was never any sibling rivalry between me and them. I loved them all and "mothered" them (a 4 and 10 year age gap between me and them though). I did see my siblings argue amongst themselves but don't know why they couldn't just get along. Now I see my kids doing this and I'm baffled, especially with my eldest, as I would never try to wind my younger siblings up like she does to hers! I should have been seeking advice about sibling rivalry sooner. I tried reasoning with my kids to be kind to each other but it seems to fall on deaf ears half the time.

Hi heather, yes I did consider SLT or assessment for SL difficulties when my eldest was 5, as I was already aware of her "muteness" with strangers from when she was about 3. She was a late speaker but once she started to speak, she could vocalise very well and good at reading and writing and talks to family members very normally like other children, so I thought it could be psychological if she can't speak with strangers. But GP and school teachers then dismissed my concerns. After she was HE I tried accessing local SLT services on NHS and privately, but NHS ones refused to assess her without observation in classroom settings, and private SLTs told me they were either inexperienced with this or they really only prefer to work in school settings as it won't be effective done in HE settings.

Morethanpotatoprints, they say things could be better if... the annoying sibling wasn't at home all day... and the definition of "annoying sibling"changes each day and time I suppose.

They recently went to a summer holiday club that took place a few hours each day for the whole week at a local church. They'd go to this each year, every August. They love it. They told me things would be great if they could go to holiday club all year round... they've even said that if school was like holiday club all day long, they'd go everyday. Which is why eldest is not convinced school is better, as she's been there, and now doesn't really want to go back. I ask them why they like holiday club so much. They say it's the other kids there that make the games interesting and fun. At home we could play the same games and they enjoy it too but they say it's more fun with other kids. Yet the club leaders commented to me out of the blue when I went to pick them up after holiday club that my kids are "very quiet". So I'm not sure my kids appeared to enjoy the club to outsiders! But at home they tell me they love it and they would go to bed excitedly every night waiting for the next day to come.

And my kids also think life would be better if we could go on foreign holidays or camping trips all the time... and they think it would be nice if we had more money to buy things they want. We limit expensive purchases to only birthdays and Christmas.

You are right my eldest does seem to have inherited my DH's personality in a way, and DH's mum was also very shy when she was younger, apparently, though she outgrew it in her middle age and now is very chatty. My eldest is very chatty with people she's comfortable with, but very quiet with people she's not comfortable with.

Hi Kettle that's so frustrating. HE is a great choice for many children and it's frustrating when those who are supposed to support children can't see that school isn't the only way.
I wonder if there are any charities who could provide advice or support.
Parenting really is such hard work.

Surely it's discrimination if agencies (especially the NHS) will only work with school kids??? I'll be honest, I think you're worrying too much. From some of the things you've said in your last few posts, I think your kids will turn out fine socially. Some of us are just late bloomers

Well I hope so. And I am a worrywart which is not so good.