its not working :(

[doublecreamwitheverything]

Its day 4 since we made the decision to home-ed our boys (7,5,2), and its failing miserably. I've just yelled at the 7year old as couldn't get him motivated to come and do some academics (ironic since we wanted to instill the bloody love of learning in them - something we thought school had taken from them).
I just can't get through to him, and motivated enough to sit with me. Nor do I know how to turn it all into something fun and interesting.

DH says to go with an autonomous approach, but I don;t see how I can get him to want to get interested in anything, when all he wants to do is play with his brothers or pester me for the ipad. He doesn't want to do anything even vaguely academic (limited to three r's).
I've read up on this method, and it seems its do with exposure esp outdoor to new things - something I can;t do because of the country we are in. My resources are limited in that respect.

Please can anyone offer any help/tips?

Im sure someone with lots more experience will come along to help.....but in the meantime, heres some suggestions!
When my DD came out of school it took at least 6 months to do anything but play. I just left her to it, since I value play & I recognised she needed time. If I tried anything structured, she would literally turn her back on me & ignore me!!! She just wanted me to be 'mummy' not 'teacher'. I decided to chill out! We did lots together, but there was no pressure. we did crafts, art, lots of walks, cycle rides, swimming, library visits, a weekly HE group & playdates. To start with she didnt even want to do craft stuff, but eventually I would just start something myself at the table, like wet felting & she would get curious and join in. She went on to get really good at felting, better than me! She also joined in with me when I was preparing food & cooking. She planned & made a 3 course meal one time. made menu's (writing!), weighed ingredients (maths!)....etc
I made up boxes for them with fun activities related to the 3 R's. It was mostly games I made, but a few worksheet style things too. I never told them they had to do the activities, but they were there for them if they felt like it. Eventually DD did start asking to do stuff from there with me. Sometime she would bring it to the breakfast table to do, sometimes last thing in the evening & sometimes not atall for weeks on end.

This year she has actually asked me if she can do workbooks at the table like in school! so Im going with it. We have an hour or so in the morning which is more structured & often I start something with them and it goes off at a tangent. I try to work with their strengths (visual for DD, kinaesthetic for DS) to make activities engaging. They still spend more time playing than anything else, but they are still very young, as yours are.
I would completely back off with academic stuff for now. Let him play with his siblings & enjoy their company & just carry on as normal, perhaps making suggestions sometimes (my kids will always join in with science experiments!!), but not pushing it. You will find a rythmn that works for you in time.

Please don't panic!! It is still such early days. I'm not sure of your history re. school but I'm sure your son will need plenty of time to 'deschool'. All children are different too, and what works for one will be disasterous for another. For instance, my DD1 hates anything structured/formal, she will switch off immediately, her eyes go misty and i'm sure all she's hearing is "Blah, blah blah!" I have to be much more 'creative' to get her to do stuff. DD2 tho LOVES workbooks, writing etc.

Play is really valuable, as is interaction with siblings - my girls are excellent at discussion and compromise between them for instance, and they bounce ideas off eachother, inspire eachother in activities etc.

We do lots of 'fun' learning stuff too - cooking, playing games, lots of reading, using the computer, watching nature stuff on TV.

PLEASE don't feel bad. Just don't do any formal stuff for a while and relax and enjoy being with your lovely DCs and have fun together.

C x

Please don't panic (note to self) as I've just gone through the same thing. I decided to go autonomous as of today. So far this is what's happened:

Most of the morning he watched docs and car programmes but also read a science dictionary and a book called 211 a bright boy can do. Then he had a look at an idiom book. He mentioned music practice twice - he never mentions it - but still hasn't done any.

Then he went up to his room and played on his iPod but within half an hour he came down and asked to do a science experiment and worksheet. Whilst I was setting up the experiment he started writing in his music theory book

He's now watching Call of Duty (mega sigh) on YouTube and has mentioned cookery but he's got a bug so I had to explain we can't cook when we're sick unless we really have too. That got us on to discussing what diseases kill the fastest.

I wish he'd do music practice but I am not saying anything!

Honestly, day 4 is nothing. The tiniest little drop in the ocean of your lives. Give it 4 weeks, or 4 months, and look back to see how things have changed. It takes time to view anything academic (or even that smells the tiniest bit like something academic) as "something to get interested in" rather than "something they make me do" when you get out from having to do things at school. Focus on doing things as a family, the interest will creep back out into daylight when you stop chasing it.

He's seven years old. Stop with anything educational. Just stop for now...declare yourself on holiday. You are in charge now. Take time to deschool...children AND parents need time to let go of the idea that education only equals sitting down and being told what to do.
It's the perceived wisdom that children need a month for every year on school, so your ds needs two moths........and you need a lot longer!

If you were to declare yourselves on holiday for a couple of months, you could do all sorts of things that your children are interested in. Now is a brilliant time to start, with all the places empty of school children.
What is your son interested in?
Off the top of my head for 7 year old boys, go to a City Farm or a safari park and you'll find yourself talking about the animals, go for a walk and he'll ask questions about the pine cones and leaves falling maybe.
What about going to London for a trip to the Science Museum and the National History Museum?
Go to the beach whilst the sun still shines, and I'll bet you'll be talking about the seaweed washed up, the tides, seashells etc.
There is cookery to do with the harvest, you could have your own festival of lights and you'll be talking about Divali without stress, there are Christmas cards to make and maybe presents too?
LEGO-amazing stuff! Maths in action and depending on what he builds, it will cover so much. My youngest child was mad about Lego for so long, she made villages for ages. We talked about what would make a good village (her questions) and she suggested a pub, school, village green, village hall, so then we talked of town planning.....and then we talked about making the village to scale.
Then she decided she wanted to convert a van when she grown up and travel in it (still a life goal) and she built one in lego. Then we went to the boat and caravan show to look at how everything could fit into a small space....again we talked about building to scale. Then she went home and drew the designs inside and out.
So from Lego we had covered maths, scale drawing and sociology of village design.....

Not once was this about me making her do anything. This was only following her choices and interests for as long as she wanted

If you were to do these sort of things (as long as your ds was up for them) you'd be covering so much learning, and when you looked back in November you'll be astonished at how much educational stuff has been naturally been covered.
Then you could have a family meeting and decide to continue on your autonomous HE journey, or whether you ALL think some adult led structure might work better for you.....

Do read Alan Thomas books, easy to read he has done his research in the UK, and use something like the Joyce Fetteroll page, for moments when you are panicking!

Ohh I've just had this blog pointed to me, about Unschooling

Haven't read it all yet, but this quote by Alan Thomas jumped out at me:
?Perhaps both the greatest fascination and the greatest difficulty in studying informal learning is getting to grips with its sheer ordinariness? [I]nformal learning remains ? a commonplace, unremarkable and yet astonishingly efficient way to learn.?

Hi, we are new AE Home edders- I am struck you said that you think autonomous education is mostly outdoor, this is not my experience at all, I wonder what you have read? All my 'strewing' is indoor and involves things like museum trips, theatres, libraries, rarely is it about exploring a forest although I would like to do that too sometime. It sounds like you are in a really difficult dynamic with your oldest child where you feel you have to make him do things - in a sense I am lucky as my child has never ever done anything I tried to get him to do so I was forced to drop that idea early on - but it sounds to me that that might be where you need to start, allowing yourself to not make him do anything and not think that you have to.

I forgot to say that I write a 'learning diary' every day - basically put down everything we've done, including play, going shopping, as well as more obviously 'educational' stuff, conversations we've had etc. It's always very encouraging to look back on when you've had a bad day :)

We too are having a rough time and can sympathise. Had an almighty row today. Me, dh and dd. It resulted in absolutely nothing to eat for dh, dd gone to bed early and me weeping uncontrolably for a while. It will get better for you and its early days. I can't offer any advice but just wanted to be honest with you and say you're not alone.
I was so well prepared but it hasn't worked, so now I'll have to replan or go with the flow. From the lovely timetable I did the only thing she wants to do is music practice- all day. We managed a bit of maths and odd bit of English, one italian and a couple of history in a week. I'm sure all our dcs are learning far more than we realise. Please try not to worry (another one, with message to self)

"Please try not to worry" ought to be a motto for all of us!! That and "pay attention to everything Julienoshoes says because she talks such good sense".
I've been hanging out on this board for a couple of years now and it strikes me that the children all seem to know what they want to do, it's we parents who are getting in the way a bit with our anxieties!
Someone mentioned "strewing" earlier on and I really think this is the best approach. Leave interesting items and book lying around. Go and get on with some mundane task yourself which leaves you available to answer any questions. See what happens. If you go 6 weeks without any music practise (Colleger) or 6 weeks without anything but music practise (morethan) it'll most likely be replaced with something equally interesting to them, and it doesn't preclude them from taking it up again the following week/month/year.

So sorry - that sounded awfully sanctimonious! Just want to reassure you that it'll be ok! It took us all a good 5 months to properly de-school after just a term of half-days at nursery- they'll be just fine in time.

Flussymummy.

I think you talk sense as well as Julienoshoes. Could you reassure as to when our anxieties will subside a bit. I seem to be just worrying about it all, at the moment, and the slightest thing seems to get to me.
I think my main worry is that ok music will be good, I can't believe the improvement within a week, but maths and English are just nowhere and really important.

I also feel bad because so many experienced ones tell us its ok, explain and make sense and then I post the same worries again.
To all of you I am listening, its just taking a bit longer to get in there. Story of my life, lol.

Sorry Flussy, cross posted there!

Perhaps the worries just lessen with time. Children are awfully good at picking up on anxieties though and if they feel that you're stressed about their learning it'll worry them too, even if they don't talk to you about it. Declaring a long holiday always sounds like a good idea in this respect. Morethan, have you tried discussing the lyrics to the songs your daughter is singing? Not in a formal way, just asking if she knows what certain words/phrases mean? DD and I had a great chat about the Lion King lyrics the other day "brushing up on looking down/I'm working on my roar/thus far a rather uninspiring thing/Oh I just can't wait to be king" There are metaphors and patronising tones and old English and all sorts to be discussed in half a verse, and perhaps your DD would find that she could get into the part even better if she really knew what she was singing about? Literacy lesson for the day without her knowing it?

Thanks flussy. I have done a bit of this before but only slightly and hadn't seen the significance, thanks very much. Some more English sorted. You've put my smile back.

MoreThan: "I think my main worry is that ok music will be good, I can't believe the improvement within a week, but maths and English are just nowhere and really important."

At school, all of these subjects are timetabled in parallel. Kids are required to do a little bit of everything every week. I'm not sure why it is like that, but it seems to be a very widely accepted plan. It's even done that way at GCSE level, which seems strange to me. I've always been very academic, but I'm not sure I could keep on top of so many subjects at the same time or keep the motivation to stick with all of them for two years.

Home educated children who have a choice about how to learn will often focus on one or two subjects intensively. Because they learn so efficiently and are so motivated, and because they get individual attention from parents, they can make a huge amount of progress in a short space of time. So it really really doesn't matter if a subject is left unattended, cast aside for six months or more. When the moment is right and your daughter gets stuck into it, she will pick it up with great speed.

That's assuming that you aren't prepared to believe that maybe your dd won't need all of the maths which is taught in schools, and that you also don't believe she is already picking up what she needs through her daily life without any formal teaching. (Both of which I believe are true, but I realise that isn't easy to swallow.) So, assuming for the sake of argument that she does need to work on maths at some point before adulthood... why now, at this very moment, in little daily doses? Why not do it intensively next year, or the year after, or just in time to pass the exam which she needs in order to get accepted onto the college course she wants to do?

thank you so much for your replies. they have been very reassuring (couldn't get to internet earlier).

these all sound like excellent suggestions.

we are expats in saudi arabia currently - and believe me, when i say there is nothing out here to do except frequent malls and shop!

regarding the 'deschool' period, we've actually not done anything even remotely academic since term finished at school last academic year (June). So thats already almost three months.

will be trying the 'strewing' method

We are decorating the bathroom and dining room at the moment and needed to get boxes out of the attic as we shoved stuff up there when we moved. Currently there is a box of books sitting in the lounge and DS has been picking his way through them. It wouldn't have crossed his mind to ask to read a book or search one out. It was the same the other day when we did our science experiment. A music theory book was on th table so he started working on a page whilst I set up. So strewing works! :)

Try this blog: birdingforalark.blogspot.co.uk/ It is written by a man who is based in KSA, but travels to other spots too. In his spare time he goes birding. This isn't particularly home ed related, but it exists! I spend a lot of my home ed parenting time looking up things which interest me...

Some of my many turning points in home edding come each time ds2 uses a word or concept I had no idea he knew. Once he answered my question about what he might do when adult with: 'Be a bard'. So I went off and stopped worrying for a bit.

If they won't come and sit with you, then you could try taking a cup of soothing tea/coffee/whatever and a cushion and sit comfortably beside them and pretend you are on the beach watching them play. A home ed beach!! I used to have to sit and watch many episodes of Top Gear with ds2. Maybe they have plenty of things they are itching to teach/show you. I'm just remembering the many games of Monopoly, how could I have forgotten them?

Colleger- I wish mumsnet had a "like" button! x

Thanks Saracen.

I guess I am so stuck in a rut when it comes to considering learning, too many kids and too many schools, lol.
I'm trying to get away from the frantic maths, Eng and Science have to be done several times a week. Its hard though and I keep feeling like I'm failing her if I don't do these things. Its so stupid because I am so interested in an autonomous education but just not quite ready to fully commit. Sometimes if dh has a free day they both do their practice and then play together for a while, mess about with music and the day is gone. They both come out of the music room with beaming smiles and I go and spoil it and remind them both we haven't done any maths.

Why don't you offer her the Music Theory for Young Musicians Grade 1 book as one needs to do maths calculations without realising it?

Hi Colleger. She does do theory books a bit unless dh is about and then its theory but applying it to practical rather than writing it down, which bugs me but I do see his philosophy on it. I.e you learn more like this and don't have the barriers of grades. So if something is interesting and happens to be a grade 5 theory it doesn't matter that you haven't completed 1-4. I think the music is autonomous I just wish everything else was and she chose to do it, maybe in time!!!!!

She will choose to do things. Remember she came out for music and she has no idea if she'll be sent back so she's making the most of it.

I had never thought of it like that. Maybe playing with dad is a huge bonus atm too. If the novelty wears off she may want to do more as well. She is still doing a bit of history and Italian, also did a bit on UK geography today. I'm sure your ds will be fine and when he realises that music still needs lots of practice even if maths doesn't he'll be fine. Don't forget the thought of auditioning for an orchestra especially a good one would make many a child run a mile, not your ds, he knows he can cope and do well. I do think they need a reality check, like an article about how much work x had to do before joining x band or orchestra. I used to do this to encourage our older ds's but as they really weren't interested it pushed them the other way. Which was good as they found other interests and saved us a fortune in lessons. I would do this with dd if I had to though and know the outcome would be so more positive.