thinking about HE... some help/advice please

[kistigger]

I have two kids and both keep asking me to HE them, it's hard to tell how serious they are or exactly why they want to do it, that is something I will need to discuss with them.

As for the background...
DS is in Year4 but hates school, he finds it boring and has very few friends (3 friends in his class but who are not allowed to play together so they vie for his affection). He has AS tendencies, although never diagnosed! He struggles to listen to me as a parent, feeling I am the world's worst parent because I do not let him have everything he wants (which usually involves a computer/TV).
DD is in Year1 but finds school too easy and only enjoys playtime when she gets to play with all her friends. She is extremely bright and finds school tedious because she learns things the first time and does not need the intense repetition of school. She is not performing well in the class and in many respects is falling behind because she is doing minimal work in the class because she doesn't want to stand out! I have to do a lot of extra work/mental stimulation with her so would have few worries in HE her!

I'm studying with the Open Uni currently. Has anyone done HE while studying for their own degree? Is it a viable option or am I simply going to put myself under too much strain?

I understand how to organize study for one child (the younger one, cos I've done some before). But how do you sort out schooling for two children with very different methods of learning, at different stages of learning and vastly different interests?

i can so feel for you at the moment, i took my eldest out in year 6, but he went back after a year, he wanted to, and is doing brilliantly now, passed his sats top grades and now in college. then i took my other ds out of school in year 8 and my youngest dd and ds in year 2 and reception. i was studying OU but i decided to take a few years out so i could concentrate mainly on my youngest 2, with full intentions of picking it back up again next year when we are in more of a routine. the youngest have only been out for a year. we have since found out my 8 yr dd has severe dyslexia (never picked up at school, due to no reading books for 18 months, and also dysclaculia) and ds a form of autism (also never picked up at school).
i am only just now realising that i dont have to go along with school guide lines, and what is expected of their age groups. and yes , my youngest does not love me at times as i wont always allow him to watch tv or play on computer games all day, but we can play ,uno, jigsaws , lego, board games etc. weve spent the day in the garden today digging and making a rockery, what a flipping mess theyve made, but it was so constructive, they sometimes love me for that instead. we bake and tend to the animals, and they learn from that. we do quite a few lessons from the internet and google things that im not sure about. theres quite a few good things online that they can play around with but learn at the same time as well.
i almost feel guilty for sending my eldest back to school at some times

Get hold of Alan Thomas and wossname's book "How children learn at school"

and also Paths are Made by Walking, which is a book of lots of amilies experience of HEing children with special needs of various kinds.

We don't limit screen time in our house directly, although we have a routine of going out somewhere every day for a few hours (and have had that routine for ever and ever). We thought that learning to self-regulate around screens was a really important thing for our children to learn. For an AS child, it takes longer than for an NT child, of course, and there can be several years of pretty constant computer/DVD use - but there are all sorts of reasons to go with it (and interact with the child at the screen as much as you can). I can't even begin to list the things that my children have learned from being on the internet - I mean, the obvious googling of things they want to know (happening completely independently by 7), but also all sorts of stuff about narrative and sequencing (particularly through games like sketch star on miniclip-com)
oh, and learning to read and spell (watching DVDs with subtitles going; Starfall.com; alphablocks; Wordworld etc etc etc). The great thing about a computer is that it doesn't mind repeating itself a million times while you suck every last drop of experience out of whatever the activity is.

NB we don't "school" our children at all in my family - quite the opposite - they are all self-directed learners. It can really really work well when there are spctrummy tendencies, because you aren't fighting against the obsessions all the time, but working with them, so the child feels comfortable and happy and not anxious, which means they can soak up whatever they are learning like a sponge.

Oh, and HE while studying - you may just need to have a bit of parallel parenting with your Oh (assuming you aren't a single mum - with other friends or family if you are on your own), so that they look after the children while you are working at certain times of each day. Because you spend so much tie with the children when HEing, that's not likely to be a problem from the children's POV.

Lots of HEing families juggle various bits of working and studying around HE - sometimes both parent work part time. I work FT, so I am intensively with the children for the rest of the time.

I think ommmward meant How Children Learn At Home by Alan Thomas and Harriet Pattison.

Yes, I did. That was possible the worst reference to a book ever given by anyone...

Thanks for the book suggestions, I will go see if I can hunt out a copy!

I asked the kids yesterday why the want to HE...
DS said it was basically because he is fearful of the idea of going to secondary school... he is turning a cricket sized bad thought into the biggest monster known to man, which over the space of 2.5 years will prove to be a nightmare. So I have asked a friend (who he likes and knows) to make him a video explaining to him that school is not all about teachers shouting and being nasty to pupils. I have yet to show him the video but hoping it is enough to calm the raging beast in his mind! It sounds like I'm trying to belittle his fear, I'm not. Video from someone else rather than mummy telling him is the kind of thing he is more likely to respond to.
DD simply said 'the work is too easy' with a glum look on her face.

As to the screen limiting... my son by choice would sit glued to a screen 24/7. Learning from the internet and TV etc is good but we limit him because the more he watches, the more his behaviour goes up the spout. He will not interact with anyone with a screen on. ommmward I do see what you mean - I just think I would serve my son with chips if I had to put up with a couple of years of bad behaviour/whining for screen/refusing to talk to me other than in harsh bouts of grunt/scream/tantrum. Regulating him makes him manageable and preserves some of my sanity. Plus in waiting for him to regulate himself: he would refuse to go out anywhere, refuse to read anything (even though he enjoys it), refuse to play with toys, refuse to go outside and burn energy. I may be wrong, I'm just not sure he is able to decline the pull of the screen.

I'm not convinced my DH will be terribly supportive, I have yet to approach him with the possibility. How supportive were your OH's before you started HE?

My dh wasn't at all supportive of the idea of HE at all to begin with. He is very conventional and had a hard time accepting ds's AS and ADHD diagnoses to begin with, struggled with assessments and basically just tried and tried to convince himself that there was nothing wrong. The same applied to HE - he didn't want to consider any other route than the one he felt ds was meant to go down, and kept his head in the sand for a very long time. It was quite miserable, actually, for all of us.

We'd talked about it a little before it happened and he was less than enthusiastic, then one awful day after I'd picked ds up from school after yet another horrendous meltdown, I came home and told dh that although I wanted to HE with his support, I would do it without if it was necessary, though obviously 'with' was preferable. Ultimately ds's wellbeing came before dh's stubbornness and refusal to accept that the education system wasn't working for ds and was in fact harming him. We'd run out of options and dh had to see that.

Admittedly it did come as a shock to him and we barely spoke for the rest of that day, but next morning he'd accepted the decision and came up with lots of practical suggestions for managing housework, shopping etc so that we could accommodate ds's educational needs. He's been a star every since and very much a supportive HE dad.

As for the screen thing, you might find it's as severe as it is now because your son NEEDS that release and downtime outside of school because he's built up such anxiety whilst there during the day. At home, you'll be able to manage his screen use more effectively and ensure he has alternative methods of cooling down when he needs it. Ds (now 13) would be the same if allowed but we use screens as a reward and sanction tool. He knows he has to abide by the usage rules or he'll lose privileges.

"you might find it's as severe as it is now because your son NEEDS that release and downtime outside of school because he's built up such anxiety whilst there during the day"

Oh this could have been written about my son........ he 'needed' it much less once we were home educating and the pressure of school was gone.

And I just wish I had listened to my sons anxieties sooner.....I ended up desperately searching for alternatives when he began to express a wish to end his own life, when the fears of "teachers shouting and being nasty to pupils" came true and were added to by other boys bullying him.

I'm not saying that is your boy's reality, but it was mine.....and I found out later was my youngest daughter's too.

When embarking on HE, one of the things we really asked ourselves was what skills we wanted our children to emerge with.

And high high high on that list was self-determination, self-motivation, self-regulation. That's why we don't limit screen time, and why we don't force our children to eat foods they don't like (we'll put new food near them and give them the opportunity to try, but no forcing).

The years when a child seems completely screen obsessed are quite scary, but I'd much rather they learned about balancing onscreen and offscreen time at a young age, when we are around to help them, than at some arbitrary point in the future when they are no longer welcoming adult help in the same way.

Of course your mileage may vary :)

Broached DH yesterday and got a 'categorically no' response. He's only seem the I'm fed up of school response a couple of times! Though he did see DD's wailing, refusing to get dressed tantrum for half an hour this morning, saying she didn't want to go to school and wanted to be HE. Spoke to the teacher and got the 'she seemed happy yesterday' response.

I feel stuck between: worlds most unsupportive (less than D)H; useless school that doesn't seem even slightly interested; and DD who is downright miserable.

I want the school thing to work - it'll allow me to concentrate on studying and not fall out with DH etc - it just isn't. I'm not a confrontational person, the idea of speaking to the head is petrifying, I get flustered and then forget everything I wanted to say and end up coming away tearful thinking of all the thinks I could/should have said but didn't/couldn't, it even worse when someone disagrees with everything I say! I can't even do it on the phone. Email/snailmail is about my limit! The school head imo is pants, and less than approachable. So approaching the school about advancing her feels out of the question. I feel unable to talk to them, they seem reluctant to tell me anything anyway, no advice, no suggestions, nothing. And to make matters worse DD has job share teachers, one is head of maths and training to be the G&T specialist... I told her DD was doing DS's homework the other day (fairly well considering he's 3 academic years above her) and she looked at me like there was no chance in hell that DD was capable of that and then said I'd 'caught her on the spot' ie unable to offer me any suggestions, but she hasn't since come back to me with a suggestion/worksheet/website or anything and that was more than a month ago. I only found out they are concerned about her writing, it's lack of quantity because I picked up on it from her books and made a comment, they wouldn't have told me otherwise. They are struggling to assess her properly. I said I'm having trouble getting her to write at home, she only wants to do maths, one teacher suggested getting a book with writing starters in, which we have but she refuses to do that too. Despite the G&T training the teacher doesn't have a clue how G&T children work... they do not do EVERYTHING to the same level, they do not need to be told everything 16 times, they need lots of stimulation at what they are good at, they do not all have behavioural problems if they don't get what they need, not all are socially inept, many are able to conceal their emotions/abilities/needs exceptionally well and most importantly... their work in the classroom is not necessarily everything they are capable of. They are to all effective purposes special needs, just a different variety to the other children, in the same way you would not expect a SEN child to be able to learn the same way as the majority of the class, so the top end is the same, they need different learning methods, less repetition etc yet they don't get it! (G&T used here in the anything over and above most of the class, rather than in any specific capacity.)

On DS... how can you tell what or when things are causing him anxiety? He doesn't tell me anything, ever. In fact he frequently tells his friends he hates me, I think he'd rather talk to the radiator than me! How can I get that sort of information out of him? His school always give the 'he seems happy' standard response! What tell tell signs should I be looking for?

A 9yo saying that he hates his mum seems a pretty good sign that he is upset... If he says he wants to be HE, is that not an indication that there is a problem with school? He may "hate" you because you are keeping him in school which he knows (even if he cannot articulate) is hurting him.

Could you suggest to DH that you withdraw DD from now, for the next academic year, and review it next summer? Then you could re-enroll for September 2013 if you want (no guarantee you'd get the same place, but then you might not want it). If nothing else, by the time the others are going into Y3, there are likely to be several doing work at a higher standard and the difference may not be so great.

On writing, if she is not in school, it is not worth worrying about the quantity. My early-reading, EHE DD hardly wrote at all when she tried school at Y5. By 12, she was handwriting stories all the time. What you say about G&T is correct. Another good thing about her being deregistered is that "G&T" would be a meaningless label (and, IMO, it can be as harmful as any other label). She would be DD, doing what DD does at her own level and not comparing herself.

Thank you SDeuchars, sometimes an outside opinion proves invaluable! When I spoke to him about HE, saying that he wouldn't see his teachers and friends every day, he was genuinely disappointed! He usually says he hates us or has a tantrum because we have said no to something he wants. It's possible the hate and the wanting to HE are connected but I'm not convinced! He seems happy at this school, something quite rare at Infants.

I suspect if I took one out, I would probably take both out anyway!! The idea of taking both/one of them out for the remainder of this year and next is tempting. DS would never get a place back in the same school though. Our schools (a separate Infant and Junior) are so over subscribed that as soon as one child leaves a new child replaces them within a month. All four of the next nearest schools are also oversubscribed, meaning I would have a trek on my hands to the next school, which incidentally, is so dire I would never ever send my kids there! DD would be ok theoretically as I would have to apply for Juniors during the year along with all the other parents of the same age children.

DH is very, how can you put it, conventional, afraid that the kids will become bratty uncontrollable lay abouts with the academic ability of an ameoba and the social skills of a grizzly bear. Trying to tell him any different is as difficult as convincing a snake not to swallow its food whole!

streakybacon - I am really hoping that if I feel that going ahead is the only option, that DH will come round before I actually do it, or I foresee a serious argument on the horizon. "Ds (now 13) would be the same if allowed but we use screens as a reward and sanction tool. He knows he has to abide by the usage rules or he'll lose privileges." sounds like something that would work for us, how did you go about starting it?

kistigger - the key for us was to set rules by mutual agreement then be consistent about sticking to them. It's nothing special really, but we can't be too flexible about it or it falls apart. Ds NEEDS that kind of firm, patient guidance because he has limited capacity to self-monitor - that's an inherent part of his ADHD - impulsivity, lack of self-control etc. He is learning though and is far better at realising when he's had too much screen time and often sees for himself that he needs a couple of days off. He'd never have got to that point, IMO, if he'd been left to work it out by himself as he gets too immersed in a game for rational thought to be a realistic possibility.

Basically, if he cooperates with agreed conditions he might get a bit of extra time, circumstances permitting, and if he acts up there will be consequences like an enforced ban or something. He accepts this because he agreed to it and doesn't have a justified argument. He didn't always and I'll admit it took a couple of months to settle in. If he feels the agreed conditions aren't working or are unfair, we'll review and find a compromise, but we all have to know where we stand otherwise he'd take over all our lives with his interests and perceived 'needs'. I'm a firm believer that children with autism have to learn how to fit into society and live by its rules, because society will never bend to them and nor should it.

Had a really good chat with DD's teacher yesterday. She's going to allow DD to choose her own reading books from the correct shelf, third football book this term didn't go down well!! Plus she has said that they are aware DD stands alone in the class in her mathematics abilities therefore as and when they have a spare TA they will do one to one with her (I get the impression that may be only once a blue moon but better than nothing!), plus she said they often give her dice with higher values etc when handing out activities in Numeracy! It was nice to have some positive reassurance for once, instead of that look that says 'just stop making it all up and go away you pushy parent'! DS has just started doing music lessons at school until the end of the school year, he seems more positive this week. Not in the class to confirm any of it though, maybe that should be my next step, volunteering in their classes for an hour or two each week!

I still have in the back of my mind the HE thing, I'm not dismissing it personally, I'm going to give it a few more weeks to see how things go and to work on DH, he's not going to give in on this until he has seen both DC go through the pits of hell and depression, so we'll have to see what happens!

streakbacon - thinking of implementing the TV/computer reward thing anyway, thanks!

Plus going to work on communication skills with both DC. Any suggestions of good ways to get information out of them regarding emotion/feeling/what went on at school today etc??? If you ask them what they did at school today you normally get 'um, can't remember'!!

kistigger - will pm you.

streakybacon - thank you for the email, not been on my email for a few days so only just picked it up!!