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Home ed

Find advice from other parents on our Homeschool forum. You may also find our round up of the best online learning resources useful.

child-led , informal learning -website, book recommendations?

29 replies

ZZZenAgain · 05/05/2011 09:15

Have been thinking I would like to learn more about how this works. I cannot really imagine the day to day mechanics of it but I think it might be something I could try and weave into my own dd's lifestyle/education in some way. I wonder although I am not really authoritarian at all if I am not a bit controlling when it comes to what dd should learn/know and whether this is a bad thing.

I notice left to her own devices for instance she is intellectually very inquisitive (like all people I suppose who have time and energy to feel interested in things). I am con fused as to how this works in reality. I mean things like: how far do you back off, how much to leave dc to find things for themselves or do you put thingsi n their way and see if they get interested?

For instance at the beginning of the Easter holidays I had my dd signed up for a 3 day sewing course (learning to use the sewing machine for a couple of hours each day). She loved it and was thrilled with the projects she made. She was free to choose what from amonst some options. After that she wanted to get my old machine down and try things out.

So in child-led informal style leanring, would this have been the wrong approach from me because I came up with the idea and I fdecided she should learn how to use a sewing machine. Do you see what I mean?

The books I see quoted a lot seem to spend a lot of time discussing toddlers/pre-schoolers but dd is already 10 and although it i interesting, it is not really that relevant for us. Can anyone recommend anything to learn more or give me any tips about how they experienced this/did it?

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julienoshoes · 05/05/2011 12:50

I've done this with three -all the way through their teens!
They are all in FE college now and all three will be in Higher Ed come September (proud momma moment!)

I used to get our local HE newsletters, scour the local newspaper for local events and gathered info on national events, and pointed out to the children everything I thought they might be interested in.
Some things they declined, but mostly they took me up on it, followed their interests for as long as they wanted to

So if your dd were mine, I'd be thinking of what else I could offer her, to further her interests.........but being aware she may not choose to do any of it.
I'd find if any of the local museums had any sorts of exhibitions she might be interested in.........my dds were very interested in an exhibition of Asian embroidery at Birmingham Art Gallery one year, and we have recently gone to the Museum of Fashion in Bath.
I'd be looking up fashion design websites, and help her make simple clothes for her dolls/herself as she gets older (for as long as she wanted help-my dd1 never wanted help!)
I'd offer suggestions about dying materieal-including tiedye and making vegetable dye.
I'd see if I could go along to one of the big craft shows at the NEC -I know we are lucky living quite close by, but my dds went along for several years and loved it. Going on a week day we found lots of the stall holders had time to talk to enthusiastic youngsters, and they had a go at lots of crafts -which sparked other interests.
We had a go at felt making workshops, and rag rugs and batik ........and then used the results to decorate the house.

and along the way, we talked about all and sundry.......and these opportunities led to interests in Fair Trade, history of cotumes-led to women's role (and politics) through the ages, we discussed food production, and all sorts stemming from doing these crafts.

It's autonomus to my mind if you offered it and she was happy to follow her interest in it.....and it sounds as though it was. Stopping when she wants to and branching off into other directions are all autonomus choices IMO.

Have you read any of Alan Thomas books on learning at Home? he defiantely talks about older children ....I know because in one book he is talking about mine amongst others!

And Grace Llewllyn's 'Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to quit school and get a real life and education' although written for teens, it was this book that really inspired me and opened my eyes to what a fabulous autonomous home education is!

Details of both Thomas and Llewellyn's books are in the 'Books about Home Education' thread here.

julienoshoes · 05/05/2011 12:52

and yes you would think typing 'autonomous' as many times as I have, over the last 10 years would mean that even my dyslexic brain wouldn't miss the last 'o'.........but somehow it usually does!

ZZZenAgain · 05/05/2011 14:03

Thank you so much Julie, that's really very helpful. Keep trying to answer but my pc always crashes so just a short thanks first!

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ZZZenAgain · 05/05/2011 14:05

that example of how you would take her interest in sewing further was really very helpful to show me how the whole thing could work. So you would make your dc aware of what was available and then help them follow on from there but not force anything they didn't seem interested in. Yes, I think I quite like that.

You have so many ideas though. I am sure I would not have come up wiith all those sewing/fabric/dying etc related ideas.

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ZZZenAgain · 05/05/2011 14:10

hiccuping piecemeal replies because of the temperamental pc..

Yes, I read your thread on those books about HE and I thought after I checked the reviews and read sample pages on amazon that they might be more about theory and the learning of the pre-schooler etc but maybe I was wrong about that. Since we are overseas and I cannot browse books, I try and figure out if they sound right. I suppose I was looking for a "child-led leanring for dummies" type book. I saw an interview with Alan Thomas and found myself agreeing with much of what he had to say. Will have another look at his books and that teenage liberation one. I did read that it was written to teenagers encouraging them to leave school and learn their own way but I didn't think it was really so much what I needed. OK, I'll check that out again too. Many thanks for your ideas/tips.

Just another thing: did you insist on anything? An example would be sport. Did you say they had to do some type of regular sport a couple of times a week but what they did was up to them say? Or did you leave that entirely up to them to try or not? Same I suppose with foreign languages , did you say they needed to learn one but could have a go (if it was feasible) at any one they wanted or did you leave it up to them whether or not they wanted to do that at all?

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julienoshoes · 05/05/2011 23:10

LOL after 10 years, thinking of ways of expanding opportunities, for them to take up if they are interested, has become second nature!

No we didn't insist on anything...........comparing how my children were when they were in school and how they were once we deregistered them, I wanted them to regain their love of life and learning.
We believed that if they finished their compulsory education age as happy self confident people who had a zeal for learning then they would go out and get whatever they needed in life.

We gave them plenty of opportunities for 'sport' and over the years they have done swimming, iceskating, sailing, kayaking, zip wires, climbing, abseiling, rugby, football, hockey, archery, surfing, cycling, walking, trampolineing, horse riding, treasure trails and and .............. some things they have done every now and again, some things they have done courses in, and some things were a regular in our home ed life.
According to their schooled peers and cousins our kids did masses more 'PE'
And we spent loads and loads of time in fields around the country, at home ed camps and gatherings. This meant they spent loads of time informally playing.........hours spent playing British Bulldog, Rachet Screwdriver, water balloon volley ball and all sorts.

Our children do enjoy outdoor activities, but I wouldn't have made them do these activities if they didn't want to, as I said before, I offered but was prepared for them to decline.
Our children all had SEN, a mixture of dyslexia/dyspraxia/dysgraphia/ADHD and ASD. So written English and grammar rules were difficult enough-we didn't feel that a foreign language was a priority. It had been a disater for two of them at school. The youngest did try French lessons, but didn't enjoy it, so stopped. If they had wanted it, we'd have found a way.
TBH foreign languages has been just about the only thing we haven't really tackled at some level.

I do think the books I mentioned would help, there is also an Autonomous Home Education Yahoo support list which may be of some help.
Ther's also an old article on Informal Learning/Autonomous Home Ed by Alan Thomas, which you might find useful. Alan has got to know autonomous Home Edders over the years, his first baptism of fire was when he went to stay with an Autonomous Ed family for a week, and he has been leading the field in research on this type of HE ever since.

If you are interested, I wrote a Month in the life of..... blog about how we started out and got on with our autonomous home ed.
I am Ann from Worcestershire there. At the time the children asked for the name changes.
I haven't written there for a few years and should go back and update it to show how successful it has been with us.........it looks like all three of them will happily be in Higher Education in Sept-not bad for three children, whose schools thought weren't that bright.

hth

ZZZenAgain · 06/05/2011 06:52

I've read your links now Julie. How on earth did you manage to do so much? I see that Lucy alone does a great deal of activities each week and with all 3 children, you must have been kept enormously busy. Your blog gave me a good idea of how you'd go about it, that was very helpful.

I was thinking about maths too, you need it in order to study/train for so many careers so I wondered how you'd tackle that. If I left it up to dd, I am quite sure that she would never open another a maths book or play a maths game or anything like that ever again. So I wonder about that.

I ordered a couple of books and I'll see how I get on with it. It would mean a major reshuffle in my mind from what i do to get to where you are tbh because I am really caught up in thinking you have to know such-and-such to be a well-educated person IYSWIM and I wonder how that could fit in with an approach that leaves it up to the dc to take up or refuse anything offered IYSWIM.

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ZZZenAgain · 06/05/2011 07:24

sorry another question: did you ever insist they stick at anything they had wanted to do but then didn't want to continue with? for instance if they signed up for a sport for a term and then decided a month in that they didn't want to do it would you have asked them to perservere till the end of the term or to give it more time or would you have been ok if you'd paid for something and they dropped it?

My thinking is sometimes you go through a patch of not liking something but if you do stick at it, you get into your swing again IME and enjoy it again. Sometimes the wanting to quit might be to do with a personal problem with another dc or a trainer. Would you then go with the dc's wishes every time so they feel in control? Or for example if you pay for music lessons and your dc says, "I don't feel like going today", would you just cancel that lesson and not make a fuss about it, jsut leave it up to the dc each week to see whether or not they take it up?

(Sorry to ask so many question) Am very interested it as you notice!

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FreudianSlipOnACrown · 06/05/2011 07:32

I'm currently reading 'Guerrilla Learning' by Llewellyn and Silver.

I'm also about to order some books by John Taylor Gatto and John Holt, and I'm now going to search for Alan Thomas books. Hardly ever buy books but I am desperate to read more around the subject of education... That is, education the way I see it now. Like you ZZZ, I was caught up in the idea that education meant knowing particular facts at a particular time, and getting good results on tests. I think I've 'seen the light' now and what I want for my DCs is that they are able to control their own learning. :)

At present though DD will be starting school in September... she really wants to go, so we will see how it works out.

ZZZenAgain · 06/05/2011 09:21

Haven't come across that book yet Freudian, hope you find what works for you. I am not sure yet where to go with it all , am having a bit of a rethink. Education is a fascination subject that's for sure

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SDeuchars · 06/05/2011 10:26

ZZZenAgain:
did you ever insist they stick at anything they had wanted to do but then didn't want to continue with?

I did. My two were in our local Saturday music school. Each term when the invoice arrived, I would ask if they wanted to continue. When they said "yes", I paid and that was it for the term.

The most extreme example is when my then Y5-age DD decided to try school. We discussed it, practiced getting up and dressed in time for the 5-min walk to the school, did work books so she had some idea of the activities. Before enrolling her, I pointed out that I was not incurring EWO hassle for her to decide to give up after two weeks (until then, we were not on the LA's radar). She did the whole term (bar one morning when she was so tired and distressed that I did not force it) and did it without coercion - it was her decision and I was very proud of her for seeing it through even though we knew after two weeks that I'd be deregistering her.

For me, it was very important that the DC would learn responsibility and commitment.

mummybiz · 06/05/2011 11:47

When I took my two out of school I thought I would be doing a quite structured day - used to be a primary teacher so it took me a while to get out of the habit of structuring and planning. I'm still finding my feet but becoming more and more autonomous I guess but I do suggest ideas and they actually want to do numeracy and literacy written work on a daily basis - I'm blogging at www.fivekidsandcounting.blogspot.com as a way of keeping track and looking back and keeping all my activity ideas in one place.Today we are baking and modgepodging t shirts !!

Saracen · 06/05/2011 12:30

"I was thinking about maths too, you need it in order to study/train for so many careers so I wondered how you'd tackle that. If I left it up to dd, I am quite sure that she would never open another a maths book or play a maths game or anything like that ever again."

That might not be such a bad thing. There is some evidence to suggest that kids learn maths better in the absence of formal instruction: www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201004/kids-learn-math-easily-when-they-control-their-own-learning I consider my 11yo dd very mathematically able, and she only twice used a maths workbook or textbook and then only for a few days, I think when she was four and again at about nine. I don't claim that one will absorb the principles of calculus without formal study, but if advanced maths interests the young person then it needn't be the work of years. I've posted on here a few times about how my dh learned trigonometry quite well in the space of a few weeks when he decided it would help him in his job, whereas my school class spent a year "learning" trig and most retained virtually nothing of what they had learned.

I love maths; I did a degree in maths; I see maths all around me; I find it tremendously useful in many aspects of life. And I think the importance of teaching children maths in any formal way is hugely overrated. What they need in their daily life is an intuitive understanding of mathematical principles, and formal teaching most often interferes with the development of that intuition. The main lesson many children learn when they are taught maths is that it is difficult, scary, and unrelated to their lives.

FreudianSlipOnACrown · 06/05/2011 12:39

Saracen that article is one of my favourites :)

I think a lot of people - and the government/NC etc - mistake arithmetic and mathematics, thinking they are the same.

Saracen · 06/05/2011 12:51

"did you ever insist they stick at anything they had wanted to do but then didn't want to continue with?"

Not generally insist, no - but I did put some pressure on if I had invested money: "If you really want to stop football just two weeks after you asked me to pay for the next term, I will let you. But bear in mind that that if you do this to me very often then I will be less willing to shell out for activities that require advance payment in future." Of all the zillions of activities my dd has done, I think she has actually given up partway through a term on two occasions. I think that's acceptable. We all make mistakes; we can either kiss our money goodbye and leave the bad situation or kiss our money goodbye and stay on and suffer. It's good to stick out the hard times and show commitment, but it's also good to learn when to walk away from something that isn't working, rather than staying on just for the sake of it. Sometimes a person can just tell.

That was when my first daughter was older. On the other hand, when my girls were still little I figured it was up to me to predict whether they would like something, and if I guessed wrong that was not their fault. I wouldn't ask a four year old to make a commitment to do a term's worth of swimming classes. I did usually give preference to pay-as-you-go activities to reduce that risk, however!

Like Julie's daughter, mine tried school in Year Five and her dad and I required her to commit to a whole term. This was because she had a tendency to indecisiveness and I didn't want the hassle of her yoyoing in and out of school every few weeks with considerable disruption to our whole family, as well as the rest of the school. (Dh and I privately agreed that if she were truly miserable we would let her come out at once.) She knew from the second day that she would not want to stay on after the end of term, and never wavered in this decision. In retrospect I think a month might have been a long enough trial period, but I don't think doing a term did her any harm.

Saracen · 06/05/2011 12:59

"I think a lot of people - and the government/NC etc - mistake arithmetic and mathematics, thinking they are the same."

When my dd was at school in Year Five, her teacher wouldn't let her sit the [http://www.m-a.org.uk/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=250 Primary Maths Challenge] because she didn't know all of her times tables, so the teacher thought she wasn't good at maths. I asked the teacher to let her have a go anyway, because she really really wanted to, but no. The following year she took the PMC while being home educated, and did extremely well at it.

julienoshoes · 06/05/2011 13:38

I'd agree with Saracen and SDeuchars to some extent, if we had invested money, then the children knew they had a responsibility to continue with it, as we are on such a limited budget, everything has to be prioritised, and doing something is always at the expense of something else.
But that for us, would come under our only rule of 'mutual respect', and the children are involved in finacial decisions about their education with us-learning about the realities of finance is as much a part of our educational provision as anything else (and certainly comes under 'maths in life' lessons! Grin)

none of them ever asked to go back to school-they had had such a bad time there, I don't think they ever considered it, thinking themselves to be very lucky to be free of it, so I can't really comment on making them stay for a term.

and as for Maths, our children hated and detested it as a subject, so badly did it go in school. Enough to put them off for life!
But everyone needs maths for every day living, and we learned it as we went along, working out budgets, what were the best bargains in the supermarket, cooking dinner/baking. Budgeting for a weekends food for a family, cooking the food bought and basking in the praise for the food and saving money, seemed to go well.
We've helped put up teepee's and woked out the angles the upright poles need to be, to make the tent stable. We've built igloos in the snow and discussed the angles the bricks need to be to hold up the roof. We've looked at building constructions, designed and drawn to scale, the inside of a van to be converted into a camper van (DD2s dream). We've worked out how much gravel needs to be bought to cover the area under our new caravan, and how many slabs to buy to make a path to go along side it.
We've measured and made patterns to make clothes. DD2 is a vocalist, she has been giging live with a band since she was about 13 ish, and has to manage a budget for performance clothes-so she buys in sales and on ebay, often altering things to fit. She also was given a budget to redecorate her sisters (bigger) bedroom when she left home. She worked out how much paint/wallpaper she would need, and finding a bargain rool of paper in an odds and ends box, allowed her more money for a nicer paint for the woodwork and radiator. Money left over bought a nice rug off ebay. Ownership of her room because she decorated has done wonders for how well she looks after it now!
Other daughter really ran with making and designing her own clothes, measuring, making patterns and fitting the clothes, all is maths in real life.
We've played card games and board games as a family and ds was a mad Warhammer fan, so much maths ome into life in so many ways and can be so enjoyable. My Dh is a big fan of Suduko and helps them see maths as enjoyable puzzles to be worked out.
Woodwork and DIY at home, contain so much maths, and they have helped in so many ways if and when they wanted.

All three have also been travelling around the country since they were about 13 ish, to visit other home ed families and to attend events. So we took them on the trains (and underground) and showed them how they worked...and the realities of train and bus timetables is maths that they have been maging easily ever since.

And as for more formal maths, I came downstairs this morning to find two now grown home ed young people -my ds and his friend who has never been to school. Both needed maths qualifications for the courses they wanted to do at University (Pschology and Sociology) so they went to FE college when they were ready and took GCSE/equivelant over one year (as they did with other formal qualifications required by their respective universities) and did very well, with no problems.
They both did say the only 'downfall' was that we hadn't spent years training them to do essays for assignments/exams, but that was relatively easily learnt, as everything else was, when it was required, and certainly wasn't worth giving up the fun and experiences they have had as autonomusly home ed youngsters.

does that help?

SDeuchars · 06/05/2011 15:54

ZZZenAgain:
I was thinking about maths too ... If I left it up to dd, I am quite sure that she would never open another a maths book or play a maths game or anything like that ever again.

I see your DD is 10. I think that part of the problem with the school system (and the school-type mindset) is that it states that maths (and English) must be practised daily to be learned. I agree with JulieNS and Saracen that they do not (in fact, I once read that it takes about 100 hours for a motivated adult to reach the average level of literacy and numeracy).

My DC did only informal, useful and fun maths until they started to think about higher ed. At that point, I shared my knowledge that maths would be necessary so they both took a level 1 OU course to tick that box. Formal maths for 9 months, not 11-13 years. Sorted!

If DS decides to do something that requires more maths, he'll either take A-level next year or the next OU course up - after checking with the future institution.

FreudianSlipOnACrown · 06/05/2011 16:48

I think that's one of the many reasons I am tempted by HEing... I remember the frustration of having to stop a favourite subject because it was the end of the lesson. I'd spend hours on end at home working on, say, a formula for a particular game - you don't get to do that if you're confined to Numeracy Hour.

I think it's so telling that HE children can pass exams after such a short time of studying. I hated biology at school, but to get into my college course I needed a B. I was off school for over a year, and managed the B with only a few weeks work in the hospital.

ZZZenAgain · 07/05/2011 07:48

mummybiz, have you considered taking theother 3 dc out of school too or are you happy with their education and the social environment they have at school? You and the two youngest sound very happy. Good luck with it.

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ZZZenAgain · 07/05/2011 08:00

I read that article Saracen on maths not having to be formally taught but I struggled to recognise my own dd in thsoe examples. People were saying how 3-4 year olds had asked what 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 is or figure out that 4. 7 = 28, my dd showed no signs at all of figuring maths out for herself. She was in Germany so didn't start school till she was almost 6 and in kindergarten it was free play all day yet she wasn't like those dc and maths at school left her totally and utterly bewildered the first two years, I had to take it in hand myself but she wasn't the least interested in it. I would say she can manipulate the numbers a bit now, it is making a bit more sense but she hates it.

Hmm I don't know. It would be nice if I could trust that really a person can teach themself all they need to know in about 10-12 weeks in preparation for a university entrance exam in maths (is that the ACT mentioned in the article?) or acquire an A-level if needed after no formal preparation just by working through a textbook or so. Hard for me to really feel relaxed about that one tbh. But of course I had a conventional maths school education myself (not that I particularly liked or understood it)

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ZZZenAgain · 07/05/2011 08:06

making a note of that level 1 OU course and lodging it in some spare corner of my brain, thanks for that Saracen.

Julie you sound so immensely capable of HE, I don't know if everyone is really able to do all that you have been doing with your dc. Things like this for instance:
"We've helped put up teepee's and woked out the angles the upright poles need to be, to make the tent stable. We've built igloos in the snow and discussed the angles the bricks need to be to hold up the roof. We've looked at building constructions, designed and drawn to scale, the inside of a van to be converted into a camper van"

and you are able to weave in all sorts of things into your conversations because you are obviously well-informed and what I would call well-educated anyway - which kind of brings me back to my attitude that it is possible to define a well-educated person on the basis of what they know and understand and can apply - which I suppose is the whole prescriptive thing. Just find it difficult to let go off that and believe a dc gets there on his/her own.

Working on it though. Thanks e veryone for your comments/experiences. Will have a look at those books when they get here. In the meantime I am thinking more about what dd wants and less of what I think is important and I notice a difference. I see she picks up on it and she likes it.

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SDeuchars · 08/05/2011 07:26

ZZZenAgain:
and you are able to weave in all sorts of things into your conversations because you are obviously well-informed and what I would call well-educated anyway - which kind of brings me back to my attitude that it is possible to define a well-educated person on the basis of what they know and understand and can apply

I agree that you can do that. The problem of "education" is how to get from a baby to a well-educated adult. Mostly, we know very little about that (although we can recognise someone who is ill-educated - even if well-qualified - and someone who is well-educated - even if they have no qualifications at all). We can see it by looking at the adult (the "product" of the education) but how do we make it happen?

The premise of the school system is that you get a well-educated person by pouring a fixed curriculum into a child over 13 years. We know that this is not true for many, many people (but we keep doing it...). I'd suggest that a better way is to let a child pursue as many interests as possible and find what they are interested in. Imposing what someone else thinks they should be interested in does not work.

My "goal" of EHE was to end up with DC that I'd be able to have an intelligent conversation with as adults. It was clear to me that people make new knowledge all the time - and babies make it at a faster rate. My job as parent and educator was to provide an environment and clear the way for it to happen.

Re your DD and maths. If she was struggling with it in the first two years at school, she may have defined herself as someone who cannot do it and this feeling will be preventing her creating new knowledge about it. Had she been left until she was ready and asking questions (or had a reason to find out), she may never have built up that resistance. Many EHEers find that it is possible to get back to that point by withdrawing a child from school and "deschooling" - not imposing anything identifiable as "schoolwork" on the child for a period (say, six months at least for a child withdrawn from Y5-6). In your situation, she is young enough that you could forget about English and maths workbooks for at least two years. When she starts to get interested in what she'll do as an adult and you start to discuss what qualifications she needs, then would be a good time to try a GCSE paper and see where the gaps are. At the least, a 2-3 year gap would allow her to have plenty of positive experiences and to redefine herself as someone who has a go at things and usually succeeds. And at that point, she could go back to the beginning and learn the things that she may not have understood at 6 or 8 and so are now standing in the way of gaining additional mathematical knowledge.

msbuggywinkle · 08/05/2011 10:34

I'm autonomously HEing my DDs (one reception age, one toddler) and it does sound really difficult when you read about how other people talk around what their children are interested in and suggest other things. It does take practice, but I am finding that I just gradually get better at it.

As an example, on Friday DD1 watched an episode of Tinga Tinga Tales about a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. I asked if she would like me to print out some pictures of butterflies to paint, she did. When we were choosing pictures, she saw some dot-to-dots and asked me to print them too. I remembered that last year a HE'er on my facebook had grown their own butterflies so I showed her a kit, she was interested, so we have ordered that to do in the next few weeks.

julienoshoes · 08/05/2011 17:57

You might be interested in reading of some research by the Frasier Institute in Canada which showed that home education improved the outcomes for children whose parents were not so well educated

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