Does anyone else have a stubbon child?

[angelstar]

DD has been out of school for 4 months now and I can't get her to do anything. She excelled at primary school so I know she is bright enough. (she is 11)

She just won't do anything, I've tried letting her choose what she wants to do. I've tried giving her things to do and she just does the very bare minimum I ask.

I am on the verge of sending her back to school if she doesn't start doing something.

It entirely depends on the child. Lists like this,exotic fruits, sounds exactly what we tried when we first home educated-and when I didn't buy into deschooling and autonomous home ed. My stubborn child just refused point blank to comply with any of it. The other two did not like it at all either!

I know now that it wasn't that she didn't want to learn, it was that her self esteem and self confidence had taken such a bashing at school.

Thank goodness I found experienced autonomous home educators who knew what they were talking about!

really dashing out now!

Well-I don't buy into deschooling
Lurking at home doing nothing and being bored out of your mind isn't going to do anything for self esteem and will make it much harder when they have finished 'deschooling'.
It depends on the person-lists work for me!

exoticfruits are you a home edder? I only ask because the deschooling process is very well established among home edders. And yes, it really can look like a child watching CBEebies for hours a day. It's a big recovery period.

OK - here's what I'd do:

LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of trips out. Not even with much discussion but "ok, we're going to the park today" or "let's go to the supermarket and buy X". My children love making the shopping list (and the check out staff think we are hilarious when we go into the local co-op for the third day in a row, only this time we buy 5 apples, one frozen pizza, and a Terry's chocolate orange)

I find that getting the biddable children ready makes it easier to get the more couch-bound ones moving fast when everyone else is moving out of the door.

And once you are out, go with the flow as much as humanly possible. go at the pace of the children, let the agenda change with what the children want to do. No need to plan, just get outside and go with what your family's flow looks like - or even, help your children to establish a flow.

Sometimes it can be good to have a trip out that then flows into an activity at home - going to buy paints and then using them; buying cake ingredients then baking etc etc. That keeps the child away from the screen for a while if you need a break from that activity.

But please remember that screen media are really really rich in the experiences they offer, and that the anxieties we have about screen media now are exactly the anxieties that the victorians had about novels.

YOUR CHILD DOES NOT NEED TO BE DOING ANYTHING WHATSOEVER THAT LOOKS TO A STRANGER LIKE LEARNING. NOTHING AT ALL.

The more she sets her own agenda in what she does, the more she will learn to follow her interests and become intellectually and socially self-reliant.

There's a random homily for you.

Hi

To answer your original question: I have a very stubborn son. He's never been to school and is now almost 18. Looking back it was pretty tiring when he was around 11 because he resented being dependent on me but wasn't up to doing stuff on his own. If it had been up to him, we would probably have never left the flat, but I used to insist on going on a healthy walk together every day. I also found he needed a LOT of sleep, else he would just flop about and find everything too much effort. Sorry, this might not be relevant to your situation, but just to say that things did get better in my case.

As far as the LA goes, I've met some of the people from Notts LA at conferences over the last few years. You don't have to do work to show them, as others have said, you can write a report about what you've been doing instead. Here's a copy of the Government Guidelines, so you can check:

edyourself.org/articles/guidelines.php

In answer to your question ommmward-no.
I can see that your way is fine for the primary age group, but the OP is beyond that.
I would treat her as an adult-that was the suggestion of writing it all down. She chose to come out of school and so she needs to take responsibility for her own alternatives-start in a small way, but she needs to be involved and not passively let things happen to her or be jollied along.(e.g. at her age she needs to plan the meal, go to the supermarket alone and cook the meal). Help her make it a positive choice, for what she can get out of it-treat her accordingly.

. Yessssss! You put that so well Ommmward I am banking that to share with DH next time he gets twitchy that the DVD has been on for too long.

To answer the OP, I have a very stubborn child, he's 3 though so that may have something to do with it, but I'm beginning to realise it's a trait he probably won't grow out of. My approach, is to basically accept and respect that it's part of his character - something I find easy because he's alot like me! I don't make him do anything, and usually he's very good at finding things to do. But when I do want him to co operate I find that rather than asking him nicely if he wants to do something, or offering him choices, the thing that works best is what Ormmmward said, just offer leadership and make things happen - right come on, we're going out to do such and such. If she is feeling down, this could help her click in to a different mood.
Maybe your daughter feels a bit under the spotlight, that she's now answerable to you in a way, as you're aware of the choices she's making as to how she spends her time and what you either approve or disapprove of, or see as valuable.
Don't let worrying about the LEA woman get in the way of giving your daughter what she needs which is your unconditional love acceptance and support. It must feel quite scary to be responsible for your own time and your life after having had things managed for you by school for so long. If she sees that you really are happy for her watch cbbc all day if that's what she needs, she'll see that you trust her, and this will set her up to trust herself too. Everything else comes after.

My children and hundreds of other formerly autonomously home educated young people that I know, are all beyond primary age, exotic fruits, every single one of them is now doing really well in FE college, University, employment or self employment.

You may not have experience of this, as a non home educator, but a lot of us here do.
Autonomous home based education is a very efficient form of learning through living life.

Interesting animated film about .

I don't see any difference personally between the way a child is motivated and an adult.

but then I aslo greatly liked

Hopefully both will be seen a relevant to motivating this child to do something she enjoys.........thus helping her self esteem and bringing a love of learning for it's own sake, rather than as something dictated by others.

I've no doubt they are-all I was saying is that she chose to leave school, so treat her like an adult and make her responsible for what she does at home. Surely that is 'autonomous'? She is too old to jolly along or just sit passively while her mother worries.
If you are the right type of person lists help-I use them for myself all the time-especially if things are not clear in my mind.Once you start writing it down it helps you to clarify things.

I spoke to her tonight and she opened up a bit more. She said she prefers to learn things by doing or watching. In her words she "wants to do something I don't have to think hard about, where I can just say I know that, I know that!"
She wasn't sure about what structure she would prefer so we have decided to do a plan every evening for the next day.

Tomorrow we are going to the library, bookshop and other shops. She is going to buy ingredients for an oreo cheesecake then we are going to make it. She has said she will write up the recipe and start a recipe folder.
Then after lunch she wants to design some fashion outfits (of different eras) from construction paper. She came up with these suggestions herself

It seems she withdraws into herself when I try to get her to do lots of writing or workbooks etc. She got quite lively tonight when she was discussing art, baking and crafts etc

One of the reasons I agreed to home ed was when she was at school she was withdrawn all the time and always had tummy aches. It seems when I try to do more schooly stuff she reverts back to being withdrawn and closes up.

Thanks for those links julienoshoes I will take a look at them.

That may not be clear-the right sort of person for lists-some people don't find them a help.

Sounds very positive angelstar-good luck. My only point really was don't let it drift and write it off as 'deschooling'.

Thats more like it, Angelstar, planning meals and cooking them is enormously educational......and the end product is so enjoyable!

You might look at budgets as you go round the shop, discuss value for money, you might find that discussions develop about about where an ingrediant comes from and and and....

(one of the best tools we ever had was the world map pinned to the bathroom wall. I didn't do any lessons around it-it was just there to study when they had 'time' So many discussions have come from that map, so many times they have referred to it!)

Discussions like this, on a one to one basis formed a very large part of our education. You can so easily see when a child has 'got' a point, when you are not in a classroom with 35 children!

and fashion design, well I could really run with that one.....lots of crafty stuff to do, is there a lace museum or something like in Nottingham? That might be interesting to her.
You could look up fashions through the ages, and I'll bet she'll be interested in linking it with womens roles in society at the time.
Funny enough, we have just last week visited the Fashion Museum in Bath bit of a long way for you to go, but if you are ever down that way......

I wonder if you could come down to Birmingham for the Sewing For Pleasure show? A bit of a treck I know, but under 16s accompanying an adult get in free, and you also get entry to the HobbyCrafts show as well, included in the price.
We did this show several times with our girls over the years, and I am certain your lass would get loads out of it. If you go on the Thursday, it is quieter and hopefully she'll get a chance to chat to many of the enthusiastic stall holders. There usually is a display of dresses of some sort-one year it was all of the dresses from the film, 'Shakespear In Love'
My daughters were encouraged to try out all sorts of crafts after visiting this show and it expanded their ideas (and mine)

If you can't get there, you could look out for smaller more local shows perhaps?

I just found loads of fashion design games for free when I googled.

You could look at how fashions differ ariund the world in different cultures, look at National Dress, and discuss national identities.

You could have a go at tie dyeing some clothes perhaps, maybe try making your own vegetable dye......maybe that would spark an interest in growing the veg....it did for my girls

You could have a go at making felt together, and then she could use the felt to make a hat, or a bag.

the list is endless, and as long as you follow for as long as she is interested, and stop when she has had enough (so it doesn't feel pressured) her interest will be sparked and she'll realise that this is working and come up with more ideas

That sounds like you had a good conversation, and you now see what kinds of things she's enthusiastic about and which she's uncomfortable with - there's absolutely no need to do workbooks, or "writing" as a separate thing. They are probably too much like school, and remind her of feelings of failure and pressure. If she's writing out recipes and expressing herself in other ways, then that's all she needs for now.

That phrase 'when I try to get her to ...' is the familiar bit for me. If I go down that route with my son it all goes wrong, so as long as the word 'get' is out of my mind and vocabulary we are happy.

I started home edding my DD at 8 and my DS at 5 (now 10 and 7) and I raced into vast amounts of "schoolwork" and clubs and other activities, so keen was I that their education wouldn't suffer! I had vaguely heard of the concept of deschooling but dismissed it as unnecessary!

Hah! If only I'd come across the years of wisdom of the likes of SDeuchars, Julienoshoes and the rest of the experienced HEdders on here! (Hadn't discovered mumsnet then.)

Looking back, just over two years later, I really should have deschooled. We had some really emotionally draining days as I tried to push my school at home agenda. The reality is that home ed and school are really very different. Children actually love learning and love being busy but they have to buy into the experience and find their own way (obviously facilitated by the parent doing the HEdding) as outlined by HE vets on here. I constantly have to remind myself of that as my natural tendency is to be structured. Also somehow there's a sense that children have to be "working hard" and almost suffering to be learning which of course is just not true.

It sounds like she is finding her way, with your facilitation Angelstar, with the baking, crafts, fashion history projects: that's Maths (plenty in measurement and crafts), English (reading), Art and History. I'm sure she'll be fine once you get into the swing of it.

Hi angelstar
My tuppence worth is

Dont fret - 4months isnt long away from school.

Go on some trips - places like a castle, a botanic garden, museum etc.
But most importantly go for walks with her. Walk along somewhere green - chat about anything, let her lead the conversation, to help her open up about her thoughts, aspirations for future etc.

Read books - go the the library or raid your bookcase and find some books to read together.(Even if she is really good at reading) Choose some really good non fiction books (not too many words and great pictures) and a couple of great stories.

I find sitting (or lying altogether on my bed) reading with my kids a fantastic way to 'bond'.
Going for walks and chatting as we walk along has the same affect.

My theory is walking and chatting and reading books together in a relaxed way might help you both to chill out - and she might be inspired about something. (for now ditch all suggestions of her doing any writing, unless she wants to)

HTH :)

Thanks for everyone's input and support. The support I've received on here has helped me to feel so much better about things and to be able to be more positive, which I'm sure must rub off on dd.
We had a good day today we dropped the other children at school and then walked to the shops and library. We spent most of the morning out and then made the cheesecake when we got back. DD has started a recipe book and wrote the oreo cheesecake recipe in it from my scruffy notes. She also worked out from the shopping receipt that its a really expensive cheesecake to make. She then spent most of the afternoon making 80's outfits with card (small ones) Then this evening went to a youth group at church and did jewellery making.
Just speaking to her today I've found out that she is interested in the suffragette movement and I've found that soon they are doing a mock suffragette trial at the galleries of justice. I looked up the sewing and hobbycraft show at the NEC and checked the train fares. Its not too expensive so I think we will go there if I can get a babysitter for my 21m old. I think maybe its my de-schooling I struggle with, it is hard though as I still have 4 children in school so am kind of in both camps.

Nice to know what a difference one day can make on MN
Once you have got one success, it is so much easier to build on.

I really wish I'd come across the HE section of this site a few months ago after deciding to HE DS2. He was severely beaten up at school and punished by the school because we called the police. Ah well - another story for a different day!

We used to do a lot of "talking" during our "school day" at home - and probably the best compliment I got from my son was that I should have been a teacher as I made learning fun and that it was amazing how much his English had improved since leaving school! He was 12.

We did do a fair amount of traditional style learning, but we also spent a great deal of time going off on a tangent. Something they weren't able to do in school, but that proved so valuable for him as we researched and answered questions that he had based around the initial topic.

Most importantly his confidence returned and he's now a very happy and confident young man.

21 month old, 4 children in school AND home educating?
Wow-mumsnet needs a I take my hat off to you emoticon!

I do hope you enjoy the sewing exhibition, if you make it. I'd advise taking food-it's expensive to purchase. I do hope you enjoy it, I found it very tiring but always fun and my girls used to love to go.

and it sounds like you are bginning to find what she is interested in.........I wish you much happiness in your journey together, and in watching the sparkle return into your daughters eyes and her love of learning returning.

My ds is ehe, and I can really relate to your daughters resistance to 'writing and workbooks'. I was so excited about he'ing my ds and went totally overboard buying lots of lovely workbooks, etc, all of which he won't touch with a barge pole!!!

I finally got it when I reasoned on why I didn't just send him to school if I was just going to try and create school at home. The whole point was that I wanted him to have the freedom to develop at his own pace, and although I have the occasional wobble, he constantly proves me right. He wouldn't draw or paint or write for ages, only ever played out at nursery, etc. However, I bought a massive whiteboard which he loved, and it is out and availabe. Currently he dresses up as Batman every day (had done for about a month!!!), and I came in to find Batman and Robin written beautifully on the board, with capitals too! He has really taken to drawing of late, and the other day asked me how to write 'l'. I asked him why and he said he'd already got a 'p' and wanted to write plunger, (one of the batman characters has one apparently)!!!

The more I chill out and let him find his own way the more he astounds me with what he learns from the world every day without me having to do much except facilitate and thoroughly enjoy being with him.

Just keep reminding yourself that you took her out of school so that she would have a different experience.

I also think this comment is very revealing... 'In her words she "wants to do something I don't have to think hard about, where I can just say I know that, I know that!" That tells you all you need to know about her self confidence, and it is completely understandable that she wants to cog back a bit and pick up from a point where she already knows things. Don't ever worry about her watching stuff that is too babyish, either. I used to worry about ds watching pingu, because its all just noise and nuance and no speech, but then I realised that he is having to think and reason rather hard to make out the story just from the actions, facial expressions (if plastercine penguins can have such) and vocal nuances.

My biggest message is just chill. Pretend it's the 6 week summer holidays and just have fun together.

Just popping on to thank Julienoshoes for the felt making link.....the children and I had a lovely time making felt pictures this week :)