figcake: 8yo bullied at school; LA website ultre vires

[SDeuchars]

figcake posted on the de-reg topic at Thu 23-Dec-10 22:41:42:

I have a question on behalf of my lovely neighbor who is non-MN. Her DD aged 8 has been bullied at primary school for the last 2 years and it is definitely not getting any better or being addressed by the school. Outside school she is really lovely, friendly, bubbly good com skills - infact, people stop her in the street/supermarket saying how they wished their Dc was "that lovely" "friendly" "chatty"etc.

Because she is increasingly ostracised and bullied at school and neighbor complained on a few specific occasions, they placed her DD on the SEN reg as they insist that she has difficulties socializing and none of their pupils would have said any of the horrible things she quoted as they sound too "grown-up" and effectively accused neighbor of lying even though she is a very honest person.
They have really been pressurizing neighbor into agreeing to external assessments (and made her sign a referral form) even though she was dead set against it as nobody anywhere else thinks there is an issue and is more to do with the school (btw no places in other schools in LA as there is a shortage of places here). They have not relented and have now written to say that they will be looking into other official ways in which to force her to agree to the assessments they require if she does not comply.
She has been talking of home-edding for a while and def feels equipped to do it but she now feels that LA will be 'on her back' even after she deregisters DD and not leave her alone as things are too far gone against her. We looked at the procedures for our LA and they def mention "home visits" with EWO (where DD would have to be present) in order to gain approval to Home Ed, submitting suitable ed philosophy, min 25hr/wk schooling and periodic visits thereafter in which examples of work must be shown; this all seems to go against advice on MN re LA rights. I don't home-ed so I can't help any further really.

Could anyone help us separate fact from fiction?

figcake Attila is right.
I do not know if derestering before the statement it can stop the statement procedures but the DFE makes it clear parent can deregister a child with SEN. An annual review of statement is done if it is necessary.

The SEN Guide of 2009 here has a useful timetable of the assessment and statement procedure on p 23. Annual Review details are on p 32. Parent Partnership is offered to the parent once the SEN is established see p 42. I understand it is up to the parent to use the service. The parent can take a friend for support along always when meeting with school and LA or other. An assessment precedes (see p 21) the Statement. The latter must be shown to parent who has rights to tell her views and the right to appeal against it

If the mother does not feel like HE she needs to thing about the secondary school v soon. A grammar I believe is safe and she can coach herself DD with WHSmith (inexpensive) tests.

Is the child artistic and does she play music or does dance/drama??? some of those stay HE as their needs are best met by tutors, and HE.

Agree with SDeuchars

Thanks - just wondered how they managed to "establish" the SEN without any real input from experts in order to accelerate it forward to the PP stage (I know the stages are probably not strictly adhered to in every case).

There are some good selective grammars nearby and mother would love her to go there - it goes without saying that the competition is vv intense. Child is very much a visual learner and music is a special interest from v early on (not drama though) - must clarify she is not a prodigy by any stretch of the imagination.

One does not have to be a prodigy to learn music. Diligent practice is though essential. Mom can say that the best music interests of DD are served at home. The musical kids learn 2-3 instruments and there is no need of expensive ones some are hired cheap. Teaching time does not have to be huge -once a week 20 min per instrument at this age but the daily practice takes a lot of time from other subjects. My son learned 3 at once and was HE. No way he could do music and be at school.

Despite the hard competition for Grammar schools, DD must do the Grammar school preparation and try the tests, if she finally does not become HE. All opportunities must be taken. This gives a nice break to aspire to something creative and constructive .

BTW, the London conservatoirs have fantastic sections for kids from the early ages and worth looking at.

No to both questions.

Ime schools and parents of SEN children often end up fighting each other and seeing each other as dangerous when really the problem?s just completely different views of how things should be done, and the ante?s being raised on both sides. The longer it goes on, the more it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy of real danger on both sides and it?s the who suffers.

Senco?s correct in giving her P/P leaflet. Pressure?s being put on schools/LEA?s to ensure parents have places to turn to when not in agreement.
Like many parents feeling threatened, she?s mis interpreting many actions, and reading too much in to them, but it doesn?t mean her general fears are without reason. (or that they?re not, if that makes sense)
Senco?s almost certainly hoping P/P will get her to recognise what?s going on as in child?s interests (rightly or wrongly) and get her ?on board?.

LEA?s are actually moving away from statementing wherever possible.

All about funding. Schools get a lump of money for S/A and S/A+ out of which they must cope with whatever needs children have that impact on education, ranging from poor behaviour to dyslexia etc. Bigger SEN reg; bigger funding.

Statutory assessment costs, and if a statement?s issued, LEA then has to give additional money, and parents can take legal action to get contents delivered if school doesn?t, hence LEA?s try very hard not to have more statemented children than absolutely necessary. They want schools to keep problems ?in house? and not come to them other than major and visible disabilities, if at all.

Re idea of rushing stat assessment through to ?keep themselves in the loop?; unlikely, unless no queue of SEN kids (unusual) and after random budget before funding apps close, but actually it would give your friend a host of options over naming the place that could most meet her child?s needs, and wouldn?t keep them in the loop if she chose to H/E or named a different school.

I think your friend needs to recognise this ?things gone too far? to change, as being her fears not a reality.

We fought back and have ended up actually statemented to H/E, with the standard pupil budget to do it, :) despite all the various allegations and suggestions made about me / him/ my parenting, over time, and the common assumptions of what ?can/can?t be done? and by who.

I?m not suggesting this should be your friends aim, or sell your friend H/Eing specifically, just trying to show what can be achieved when a parent to quote someone further up ?grows a pair? even when they?ve had years of agro.

There was lots of fear and tears and grey hairs, but they where mine, instead of my child?s, and my only regret?s not doing everything a whole lot earlier.

Should it be of help to your friend, I?m in a group that can?t be too far from you/her.

Should point out I didn't see this whole second page and answered direct to page 1.

figcake there is a lot of support here, I am amazed.

IMO I see the 'get on with the education of the child' as number one urgent priority. Staying where she is now is a problem.

Amongst the solutions it is worth also looking at the Rudolf Steiner Schools, and its philosophy. There are several RS Schools all over London see this site here
It interesting to just read about each one of these.

figcake the site of RS Schools is here

Aren't Steiner schools somewhat fruit loop, with the whole anthroposophy thing? Have also come across people who have suffered very bad bullying in the Steiner system. Have come across others who've adored it, to be fair, but it seems a bit cult-y from the outside. Well, duh, they are religious schools, it's just that the religion isn't particularly heavily publicised, what with it being anthroposophy (which I have probably spelt wrong)

Thanks for all the support - I have learnt so much and it has given my friend a lot to think about although she is still stressed out and unable to decide what to do - it's probably more to do with the first (potentially last?) day of term (of a new year) seeming like D-day and the lack of direct contact with the other parties during the last fortnight though they have never been far from her thoughts.

Green - Strangely enough, I looked at Steiner for my own DS as I felt that he would be suited personality wise but I was put off by Rudolf's distant links with Nazism and the fact that we don't live within walking distance of one and I do not drive. The fees were not nearly as low as I had imagined for all the parental involvement expected - does anyone know which of the schools has a means-tested fee structure (unless I imagined that)?

I do agree that it is a possibility for her DD and I can see why you would recommend it. I will definitely show her the linked info. I also wondered about Human Scale education and enquired about it on a separate thread to which Indigo replied.

I agree with some of the other posters' suggestions that the LA might not be trying to persecute your friend. They might instead be trying to fulfill their own obligations (in a way that looks strange to someone not in the system) and guard their backs.

If this is the case, there may be very little hassle at all after deregistration. Some LAs are quite relieved to have children with special needs "off their hands" so they won't get into trouble for failing to meet their needs, and won't have the inconvenience and expense of educating them.

It's hard to predict. Some LAs genuinely believe parents aren't compentent to educate their children and will hound parents after deregistration in order to try to get the kids back to school where the LA thinks they belong, whereas other LAs would be delighted if all parents would quietly shoulder the burden of educating those children that the LA itself can't or won't educate properly.

Sorry in advance if this has been covered.

There is no legal right for any LEA to monitor HE. They have no legal right of entry to your home and no legal right to test your child in any way shape or form.

Tell your neighbour to remove her child from school and deal with the fall out if and when it happens. There's a tonne of advice on here and elsewhere, but here first.

As for being put off steiner because of a distant lik to nazism- where did much of the medical studies that led to the medical treatments and understandings of today come from?

Loads of brilliant advice, I do agree and we are v grateful indeed. I will update you all once school opens - I still don't know which way this is going to go as we will be contacting Ed Dept first re school vacancies, then the EP re omission of false info second (Should be in writing & could involve a SEN solicitor but don't want to rock the boat more than is necessary - would be interested to know what you think). We want to demonstrate that the decision is not being taken lightly.

Friend wants to move (as do I actually) - so we also need to check what the demand is like for Victorian semis in NW London safely within the catchment for the supposedly "outstanding" school they all hanker after. Makes it so hard to walk away and in doing so, let them off the hook when the only other school known to have vacancies in the Borough is basically miles away in the Red Light District with gun crime and all the rest of it.

My experience of the system is quite like what JustGettingOnWithIt said. My DD was suspected SEN since babyhood and when she went to nursery at 4 her nursery teacher even told she thought so. However its ASD type and not very severe and we've been refused assessments and fobbed off ever since the age of 5. Her school was adamant there was nothing of the sort even though I spoke to teachers every year about it, even to the head. After a tormentous year in school for her in year 2, where she was becoming a target for bullying in class because of her behaviour and she developed school refusal, I pulled her out of the system. Had a bit of hassle from the LA and the school then, at that point, but I had some great support from HE support groups both national and local, and managed to negotiate a way out of the situation. On hindsight I feel it was probably a blessing in disguise that my requests and concerns for her possible SEN were fobbed off at every single turn when I tried in the past, because it could have been more hassle for us to home ed her if she had been... I don't know. She's very happy now to be home edded. Best decision I ever made for her. Support groups like Mumsnet HE, Yahoo! Groups like HEUK, local HE groups (if you have one), and the good old HE mailing list at netpals.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A0=UK-HOME-ED can all be great sources of advice and help regarding sticky situations with LA especially if they've been acting ultra vires. I wish your friend the best of luck! :)

well IMHO she should let her be assessed because then she will have the further ammunition that the child has no social issues and that what she is saying is true

she should do this at the same time as saying that she feels that the school is not following its anti-bullying policy and that there are fundamental issues that she wants addressed by the governing body

I have been a governor. We cannot do anything about implementing anti-bulying except discussing and approving the policy. Sadly this policy cannot be implemented always especially when there are other financial and urgent problems as well at schools. Bullying is "the tip of the iceberg". Even if governors bring the specific issue at the meeting (meetings are 3 times a year) we cannot do anything. It is all in the hands of the Headmaster only he can expell. The parents of bullies have tremendous rights and can appeal against the Head's decision they can drag the school into an Independent Panel. The Head's worry is when they have to expel a bully and after a few days they must supply a teacher at home for him/her.

UPDATE

It has been a really tough day. (Bit of background: neighbour sent a boot-licking type letter after Christmas to say that she was willing to have EP involvement after all. Reply invited her DD to begin a series of appointments supposedly starting today. Please bear in mind that she has never actually had an assessment to date).

Neighbour turned up with DD and they were led into a room. EP ignored DD other than saying hello. EP was a cold bitchy type - pretty much immediately and defensively says something along the lines of ' I have looked at DD at school while I was there observing another child. DD has serious difficulties IMO. I am referring to a paed straight away.' My neighbour said she needed time to consider. EP said 'I am doing it regardless - if you don't comply we are also referring straight to the safeguarding officer as you are not allowing us to meet DDs needs so we have serious concerns about her welfare....If you had agreed to do things our way from the start without challenging us it would not have come to this'.

What I need to know is;
Is this acceptable? Neighbour was very strongly led to believe she had attended in order to have an EP prog drawn up. Her letter to them had clearly indicated her willingness. DD was off school for that very reason - yet it was almost as though DD was 'being used' in her being present as evidence of the EP having seen her. If all she wanted to do was to wash her hands of DD then why do it in such a calculating way esp as DDs mum had already held up an olive branch of sorts?

There seems to be some kind of strong punishment element built into this - 'if you had done what we asked we would not have resorted to paed as our first port of call'. For a child who does not have complex SN or SENs what is the logic in going straight to paed without any kind of assessment? (Well, funding was mentioned pretty early on actually).

Neighbour is understandably distraught and we feel that she has been 'stitched up' in a really calculated and unethical way. There are major issues which have been ignored, such as whether it is a case of DDs school being the wrong type of environment for her. Does neighbour have a right to insist upon being offered the usual involvement of EPs, SALT etc. - any right of appeal?

Where is this likely to go next and what are the choices open to neighbour?

just trying to refresh memory

child having a bad time in school

mum thinks it is the school's fault - that her child is fine, but that the school are failing to meet her needs

school say that they think the child has undiagnosed special needs of some kind

EP has seen child in classroom and has already come to the conclusion that yes, the child has SEN of some kind.

So EP is referring on to a paed who will be able to make the kind of diagnosis from which, if school and EP are right in their instinct, extra ££ and help for the child in school will flow.

I've got to say, as an educational dissident myself, I completely see the school's POV here, even the welfare part of it. They see the child is having a horrible time, but they do not have the resources to address it without the funding that would follow some medical condition that would explain why the child is having such a horrible time. If the mother is trying to block this bid for extra help for the child, then it is indeed the mother who is responsible for the continuation of the horrible time at school.

Either

a) go see the paed. Be ready to hear that the child is not neuro-typical and, with that extra help, help them to make a go of it in the school environment

OR

b) withdraw them from school. Go to see the paed. Explain that you think that, whether or not the child is neurotypical, school was a major trigger for them, so that actually diagnosis is not really relevant or welcome at this point, since you will just be working hard to meet the child's individual needs with a home-based education.

But yes, you go and see the paed. You do not want social services being called, which is what the school and EP would (justifiably from their POV) be likely to do next.

Sorry. I know this is not what you want to hear.

Thanks ommward - but would she have to do this via her GP or could she self-refer?

The school have been awful and unsupportive in even providing her DD with the 10 hrs which she was promised - they would just take the ££s and continue to fail her IMO.

Why would they call SS if she agreed to see their paed? She is fully cooperating as a matter of policy from now on, so why is their defensive hostile attitude towards her not being relaxed?

Hand on heart, her DD is a lovely friendly sociable intelligent girl - the school do not acknowledge any of this. They never wrote anything complimentary that was not double-edged in her school report for instance.

What is the problem with the EP doing the referral? The paed will be working independently and cannot do anything to make the DD go to school. She could take ommmward's option b.

Useful to know this, but I don't understand what a GP would be able to contribute for a child who has never really had anything out of the ordinary occur from birth onwards - what is the point of the paed referral if it is mainly medical stuff given that neurological conditions are not straightforward to identify. What are they likely to send off for following the paed appointment? Blood tests? Or refer back to people who unexpectedly said that they could no longer help in the first place?

Are they looking for a diagnosis/ stat assessment - they told her they were not but then IMO pretty much went on to define the latter as being what they were after. Presumably, the school would only secure their additional funding if in conjunction with a diagnosis and nothing less than that?

If she gets her DD out of the school now, where would it leave things re the paed?

Hi, sorry things have not gone in a more friendly manner.

I agree with Omm?s points.

I think the fundamental problem here is your friend doesn?t understand what is ?normal? to them, and consequently feels very threatened.

They don?t understand your friend?s reactions and see them in a very different way.

You say she?s never had an actual assessment to date. To the E/P observing her in class whilst there for another child is ?assessing? her. I understand why mum objects to this but afraid it?s quite normal, and E/P isn?t washing her hands of the child, she?s seeking professional back up. Once the child?s been seen E/P will be back in the loop.

School usually has to buy in E/P?s time, and it?s very rationed, so piggy backing children one formal, one informal, into the same hour as a favour, is common.

I?m afraid it isn?t up to your friend to want time to consider if she?s happy with her child being referred to a paed. It?s the E/P?s job to do this with or without parental consent if they believe it to be required. (Same for G/P) The E/P is power gaming rather than explaining nicely, possibly because she feels undermined by mum and is angry, possibly because school want to cover up their failure to get involved earlier and E/P?s cross with all.

The actions are acceptable, the attitude absolutely stinks, but I?ve seen plenty of bosom/scrotum hoicking out of E/P?s. Some are fabulous; some give their profession a bad name.