Abroad holidays with a child’s arrangements order.

[Lizzyqueen]

Hi everyone.

This is my first time here. I hope you’re all well?

I have a child’s arrangements order. I am wanting to take my daughter on numerous abroad holidays over the next couple of years. However, I do not want to ask for my ex partners permission as he will say no ( as this is the only tiny bit of control he has left )

I am lead to believe that if I have a child’s arrangements order then I do not need the father’s permission to take my daughter on holiday of up to 28 days. However, I have spoken to a solicitor online and she says “ it all depends on what the CAO states about holidays “ then when I type into Google it states I don’t need the fathers permission if I have a CAO.

I do not want to apply to the court for a “ specific issues order “ if I do not have to.

I am confused. Is there any parents here who have a CAO and take their children abroad?

any help and advice will be appreciated.

Thankyou.

it also depends on where you are traveling. I am currently prepping permission to travel paperwork because it is required by the destination country for an upcoming holiday.

When I looked online for the country I am visiting which is USA it states they accept CAO

What does the CAO say about holidays? Often they do specify time with parents. What does it say about weekly contact and time away from a parent in school holidays?

The CAO says that my daughter is to see her father every 2 months and that I have to allow her to do that. It doesn’t mention about school holidays.

If you have a CAO that says your child lives with you, you can go abroad for up to 28 days without consent.

However that doesn't mean you can take them on the other parents time without permission. So for example if you had 50/50 the order would technically give you permission for holiday but you won't need dad's permission because you would be having the children on "his" days.

So long as your trip doesn't stop his time with them, the CAO is enough for travel you don't need permission.

This is what my CAO states within the order.

“ Live with order “

1. The child shall live with “ my name “ until further order.

I thought a live with order was different to a CAO. Even though the CAO states she lives with me.

we don’t have 50/50. She sees her dad every 2 months for an afternoon. Thats what the CAO states as recommendations from CaffCass.

It says she lives with you. That's a lives with order. So as long as your holiday doesn't cost him allocated time you don't need his permission to take her.

Thankyou very much.

i want to take her to Walt Disney Florida. And on .GOV it states you need the other parents permission if travelling solo.

.GOV doesnt say anything about CAO

There is no legal requirement to obtain the consent of all those with parental responsibility if the person with whom the child lives under a Residence Order or a Child Arrangements Order is travelling for less than 28 days.

From https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/travel-and-relocation/ (scenario 1 - foreign travel, outside the UK)

Thankyou so much!

You're welcome! Sounds like an exciting trip, Hope you and DD have an amazing time

This. But what a crappy contact order. Having worked in this in Scotland for years. How can it possibly be in a child’s best interests to see their father oneself every two months for an afternoon? I hope that’s supervised.

I mean I have seen fortnightly one hour supervised and postbox only as a final order, but to reduce it to that level and expect mum and child to manage and cope with that. Seems crazy. Unless he works away or something of that nature.

And I hope you realise I mean crappy for you and child OP. Kids see the GP or dentist more often than that. He is either a positive permanent father or he isn’t. Have the best time and one day I would appeal or ignore that!

Thankyou. What is DD? I keep seeing that everywhere!

@jesihar That low level of contact might be for a very good reason! I can think why it might be so infrequent. This situation isn’t happy families is it? There’s clearly a massive issue with dad.

I guess once every 2 months means it doesn’t need to mention holidays. Most do I understand. However that’s with much more frequent visits so holidays are specified.

All of his visits are supervised.

My daughter is old enough to have her voice heard in court and CaffCass listened to her and addressed her recommendations to the judge which the judge accepted.

The courts want all fathers to be present, but the safety and well being of a child is priority and if the other parent is a risk to the child then supervised access will be in force.

OP, I was quite overwhelmed when I went through the whole CAO court hoo haa, but I remember it being quite significant that it stated LIVES WITH.
I wish the courts would make things easier for lay people (I am educated), it’s a whole other language.

@rosemarble Yes, I agree.

Im finding the paperwork very confusing. Did you take your children on holiday with the CAO?

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/acronyms

I did, but my ex would not have stood in the way.
It was only actually an issue for a year or so because the CAO was changed so that ex had to apply to the court if he wanted to see DS2 (DS1 was nearly an adult at this stage).

Ex wanted to take then 7 year old DS2 on a long trip to Asia which I was not at all happy about and when I expressed my concerns it was written in the Order that he was not allowed to do so. The connection with Asia is on my side of the family so ex had no specific reason to take DS2.

It sounds like you and your DD have had a horrid time, I really hope your enjoy your holidays and find peace.

@rosemarble That’s why barristers are trained in family law.

I had a family law solicitor and found a lot of the communication hard to understand. I would read a paragraph over and over again, all written in legalese.

I don't expect lay people to understand many of the terms I use in my own work. I don't know why the legal profession doesn't make it easier.

@rosemarble You don’t expect people to understand your specialist terms but lawyers must change what they write? It’s actually written primarily for other lawyers isn’t it. I guess they understand it. However I’m sure some do write in plainer English but all words and sentences have meanings so being precise is what lawyers do!

No, what I should have said was "I don't expect lay people to understand many of the terms I use in my own work, so I make sure to use words people understand".

I received very many letters from my solicitor (don't most people going through a divorce?). I'm not talking about precision, but using legalese. It's widely accepted that the language is hard to lay people to understand.

OP lone parent here with a CAO and I’ve traveled in and out of the US multiple times with DD. It will be absolutely fine as long as you are the RP. Do you have the same passport names? If you don’t you might get asked at the US border so just make sure you have the CAO with you.