EU travel question

[SnugglyJumpersMakeItBetter]

So you're not allowed to stay in an EU country for longer than 90 days in 180, but does that apply to just ONE country or are they seen as collective? So If I spend October/November/December in Spain can I then spend January/February/March in Germany or is that off the table?

If you have a residency permit your British passport does not get stamped in or out of the country of the permit.

Although you’re restricted to 90 days in other eu countries, if you drive or take train I don’t really know how they would know. We live Central Europe so travel
across various boarders fairly regularly for the day or long weekend, I haven’t had my passport checked at all in at least 5 years on boarder crossings.

No, that is incorrect. The 90 day limit at a time applies in any individual EU country, but not the rolling 90 days in 180. Eg, as a third country spouse if an EU citizen you could spend up to 90 days in Spain, return to the UK for 24 hours and then return to Spain. You need to check out your particular situation - eg my German husband would also be required to get a visa if he wanted to stay in Spain for longer than 90 days at a stretch.

Also be mindful that if you spend more than half the year in a country you will generally be liable to be taxed there.

@Hoppinggreen and others, the EU' Practical Handbook for Border Guards is very helpful. and has been issued to all Schengen countries.

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/8cea3074-8a87-489c-b9c2-d926101ac621_en?filename=Practical%20handbook%20for%20border%20guards_en.pdf

Got it thanks! So I could spend 90 days in Spain with my Irish spouse, then spend a week in France, then return to Spain for another 90 days under the Directive for families of EU citizens samarrange posted earlier. But if my spouse was Spanish then Spanish spousal rules would take precedent.

@Caspianberg "If you have a residency permit your British passport does not get stamped in or out of the country of the permit."

If a British citizen has a residency permit for an EU country, then their passport should not be stamped regardless of where they leave or enter Schengen. For example, a British citizen living in Germany who visits the UK for a holiday can sail from the UK to the Hook of Holland or to Calais and their passport will not be stamped when they re-enter the Schengen area (and should not have been stamped when they left the Schengen area). Likewise, should that person fly to Salzburg in Austria, or to Amsterdam, or to Copenhagen and then take the train to their home in Germany, their passport will not be stamped. As a Brit with a residence permit for an EU country, this is a conversation I've had several times with the Border agents, and I've never had my passport stamped in or out of Schengen. [Nor will I be subject to EES or ETIAS when these are introduced]

Edit: The "Handbook" states that persons holding a residence permit should not have their passports stamped when entering or leaving Schengen, but then adds that "Article 11(1) of the Schengen Borders Code clarifies that a Member State may [my italics] stamp the travel document of third-country nationals holding a residence permit or long-stay visa issued by that Member State. ... However, the Commission does not consider such stamping as useful..." [Page 74 if anyone is interested]

@SeatonCarew "...my German husband would also be required to get a visa if he wanted to stay in Spain for longer than 90 days at a stretch."

As an EU citizen, your German husband has the right to stay in Spain for as long as he likes - he just needs to register with the appropriate authorities (although there are some conditions to be met such as having sufficient funds and having healthcare coverage). You are correct if by "visa" you mean residence permission - but this is a right that he has as an EU citizen that he is entitled to exercise.

This gets complicated because the 90-in-180 is the EU's remit whereas time spend over 90 days in any one country comes under each country's immigration law.

I actually asked the EU (look for "Europe Direct" on europa.eu) about this ("If Mr EU and Ms Non-EU go to Spain for 88 days, how long do they have to spend in France before they can go back to Spain") and the reply was basically "Not the EU's issue".

Note also that if you spend more than 183 days in Spain (or most other countries) in a calendar year, you automatically become a tax resident of Spain (etc) simply by virtue of having spent more than half the year there. If in addition you have not registered as resident in the EU/foreigners registry sense, then you are now committing outright evasion of Spanish (etc) taxes.

There is a related issue with Brits who own second homes in Spain where they spend the winter (the so-called "swallows"). Pre-Brexit they might come from, say, 1 November to 31 March, which is 5 months. Now, under a strict interpretation of 2004/38/EC you were meant to register as resident in Spain around day 90, and then deregister when you left to go back to the UK after day 150. This didn't happen for a a few reasons: (1) The UK citizens concerned couldn't be arsed, (2) Spain couldn't be arsed, and (3) while the EU Directive is based on the idea that registration involves turning up at a police station one morning and completing the process in 10 minutes, Spain (and probably some other EU countries, but Spain is particularly egregious) turns it into a whole palaver that can take more than 2 months to complete anyway.

There are groups of these "swallows" campaigning to try and get 90-in-180 not to apply to them. I have some sympathy in that not many of them voted for Brexit (those that did, fuck 'em), but they do tend to lay it on a bit thick. For one thing I suspect quite strongly that as well as 5 months in the winter a lot of them were also having enough weeks in the rest of the year that they were going over the 183 days, but they didn't want to pay Spanish taxes and they knew that enforcement of rules for EU citizens is quite rare in Spain.

Hi,

So you get 90 in 180 days in the whole schengen, which is most but not all of the EU. For example, you spend a week in Spain and a week in Portugal; you've then spent 14 out of your 90 days for that 180 day period.

But if you then go to Cyprus for a week which doesn't participate in schengen your still only at 14 days for that 180 day period, despite spending 21 days in the EU totally.

@Havanananana

this is not what is says on gov website

‘If you visit other Schengen area countries outside Austria, make sure you do not exceed the visa-free 90 days in any 180-day period. This applies even if you have an Austrian residence permit‘

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-austria

I haven’t had my passport stamped as travel with residency card. But I think we are still restricted to 90 days in 180 if we travel in countries other than uk or country of residence. If just says we ‘need to keep note’ as presumably we aren’t stamped. So how they would know I don’t know, but legally yes. In general though yes we have the rights of Eu citizens with the permanent residency

We live close to boarder, and I do know of some people whose teenagers actually go to school across the boarder. So not sure how that works but I assume exemption as they go back and forth daily term time

@Caspianberg I've not said anywhere that the "90 in 180 rule" for Schengen countries other than the country of residence does not apply to people with Residence Permits. I've actually pointed this rule out earlier in the thread, but the onus is on the individual to keep track of the days since there are usually no border checks when travelling within the Schengen area. This is also what the government website that you link to states.

My comment was about your statement that "If you have a residency permit your British passport does not get stamped in or out of the country of the permit." As the "Handbook for Border Guards" explains, the passports of residence permit holders should not be stamped when they enter or exit Schengen regardless of which country this happens in. This is to avoid issues at the borders brought about by people arriving and leaving from a different country to that of their residence.

Regarding crossing borders for work or education, there are special rules for "Border workers" as many people live in one country and work in another just across the border - Copenhagen/Malmo, Flensburg/Sonderborg, Salzburg/Bad Reichenhal are good examples, where the towns either side of the border are just a few km apart.