Do I need my DD's dads permission to take take her abroad if he hasn't had contact in the last 6 years?

[tess1234]

My mum has booked a family holiday for next year July and I've heard that I'd need permission from DD's dad to take her abroad?

We had social workers when she was born and he didn't engage with them properly, going to meetings, doing the assessments, and drug counselling he was asked to do, but they had seen enough and heard enough to say he wasn't allowed near her. He is on her birth certificate and we were in court during the first year of her being born and although it's recommended he takes me to court for visitation I don't think that was written in a court order. I've already rang my solicitor because I was told he needed to give me details and sign her passport which I found out wasn't true, but the solicitor never mentioned I'd need permission when I was speaking to him.

Do I need permission from the court? If I start the application to court now will it be valid for my holiday in July next year? It's our first time going away and I've been really excited since learning it was booked and now it's kind of put a downer on it.

No you dont need permission under these circumstances. I was under similar and took DD abroad many times without permission. He was absent regularly too

https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

If he still has parental responsibility, then technically, yes.

The above link gives the government information.

Lots of posters will say they've never taken a consent letter and never been stopped. That doesn't mean some people aren't. Think of it like customs checks- not every passenger is stopped and has their bags searched. Some do.

Depending on the wording of your court order, it does sound as if he didn't have the PR removed for any reason (even if the CO states the child lives with the mother, it doesn't mean PR isn't shared, it's not connected only to residence)

If there is no contact whatsoever, you'd be best speaking to a solicitor and obtaining documentation to that effect.

It shouldn't be too difficult in your situation

https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

You can take your child on holiday for 28days or less if you have a CAO that says the child MUST LIVE WITH YOU. Bring copies of your court order on holiday with you in case you are asked, along with a copy of your child’s birth certificate showing you are her mother.

It might be worth checking the rules for your destination too.

I spoke to my solicitor not long ago that dealt with my case back then, he said I can take her abroad without needing any sort of permission or court order, for no longer then 28 days as I am primary carer

So you knew the answer that you asked this morning because you'd already had legal advice about it.

Okaaay.

Thanks for wasting our time then. Enjoy your holiday.

Legally yes you do need his permission if he has PR.

As pp say you will no doubt have several posters saying they've done it without but it's really not worth the risk. Go through the proper channels. I've been stopped twice in 14 years with my dc and would have had both holidays cancelled (with no chance of a refund) if I didn't have the right paperwork.

I was just quoting from the UK govt website.
It is worth looking at what the country you’re going to requires as well. Some destinations are more stringent than others. You should definitely take whatever proof you have that you are the primary parent and your DD has no contact with her father. In your position I’d take whatever official stuff you have as proof. Is your child confident enough to answer questions from immigration officials? Basic stuff like ´who is this?´ (Mum/Gran/Auntie) and ´where’s your dad?’ (I don’t know. I don’t see him) And ´why are you coming to Spain?’ (For a holiday). That can help. Immigration officers are trained to pick up on kids who might be being trafficked or deliberately taken away from one parent after a breakup. There’s rules set by individual countries about traveling without everyone with parental responsibility for a child and then there are international anti-trafficking/kidnapping agreements. Immigration officers do get some discretion - if they believe you’re genuinely going on holiday they are far less likely to pull you aside for extra questioning than if anything about your documents or your demeanor suggests the child is not yours or the child is being moved internationally to remove them from contact with their other parent.

Replying in response to your later comment about me wasting everybody's time.

Literally received the call from my solicitor about 10 minutes before I had responded with that, you just assumed. So no, I didn't have the answer to my question when I posted that this morning.

Maybe don't comment if you think your time is being wasted? I asked a question like everyone else on this asks. I contacted a solicitor, like I was advised by many 🤷🏻‍♀️

I haven't worked out how to reply to your reply on mine lol, I am new to this. I'm travelling with my mum and 3 siblings as well. It's a group booking, but I'm going to get a second opinion from a different solicitor, I'm still not 100% sure the advice the solicitor I've used before is accurate or if he was just brushing me off. It does say on the gov website I can travel for 28 days but that's with a court agreement in place which I don't actually have but he didn't seem worried about that. He just went on with "why couldn't you take your own child on holiday for 7 days if you are the primary carer" which does sound crazy out loud but I don't want to be stopped or have any hassle and what kind of proof do I have or even need, to say that I am primary carer?
I have no contact with her dad, I don't know where he lives or what he's doing these days. He's the type of person that'd make it a big issue as well, he'd think he has a hold on me because I for once need something from him, so he'd try use it to his advantage.

My DD's father also disappeared years ago and is on birth certificate. My issue is that my DD has a different surname to me! Court was never involved from a custody standpoint (although I do have a prohibited steps order preventing him from EVER taking her from my care). However I am very worried about being questioned by immigration authorities upon arrival in whatever country we may visit in future, as I have absolutely no way of obtaining a permission letter from him. No idea where in the world he is and he doesn't use social media. I've tried searching for/googling him a few times but no luck. Have zero way to contact what remains of his family either.

he'd think he has a hold on me because I for once need something from him, so he'd try use it to his advantage.

Exactly the same here if I ever did manage to find the little git!

PP's advice on checking the country you are travellling to is sound. Whenever I took my DD to the US I brought a letter from her dad saying it was Ok. Never got asked, but I had it in case.

Where are you going OP? Do you want mumsnet to help find the recommendations for your destination?
I does seem like what your solicitor told you and what the govt website says are not exactly the same thing. I’d maybe look at getting a second opinion on that. Maybe ask if whatever legal documents you do have about your ex and contact with your child are considered equivalent to a CAO that says your child must live with you.
There’s every chance that you’ll not be asked to prove anything. But if you are and you don’t have the right documents then it will be very stressful for you and you might lose your holiday.

My DD has a different surname to me as well. It's such a headache just to want to go away with your family. I could find her dad easily, I have him blocked on absolutely everything. But every time we've ever spoke in the last 6 years, if he's found a way to contact me, it's always been threatening, it's never been about her, it's been about me. I have just kept him blocked because I had to go through counselling because of it, referred by social services that's how bad it had gotten. When I met my partner, he went out of his way to threaten me about letting another man near her but that's only because he couldn't control me anymore. The police can't do a whole lot about it either, he lives in England and I don't, still apart of the UK. Last time he was here visiting friends, the police did go and give him a warning and he left back to England the next day because of it. I hear getting parental responsibility removed is near impossible so I've never considered the possibility. Half of me was just gonna cancel the holiday and take her somewhere within the UK but I feel like that's a win for him, even if he's unaware

There will absolutely be a way of getting this sorted without contacting your ex directly if he was denied contact with your daughter. It just might involve getting a court order.
I think you should dig out whatever documents you do have and reread them to check what it says about contact between your ex and your daughter.

The surname thing is a red herring. Immigration officials might a little more carefully when surnames don’t match just because it’s a bit more likely that a child isn’t travelling with a parent or that there’s been a relationship breakdown when the surnames don’t match. But that’s a probability thing and it doesn’t work with all naming cultures and conventions. Surnames have no impact on the actual legal rules and regulations at all.

I'm going to get a second opinion for sure. I've had a headache about it since I've learned about it lol. We are going to Spain, Lanzarote.

I'd just love if he has no ties to her, no court will ever allow him to have unsupervised contact with her, that's the only agreement in place. he's got a massive criminal record, he has mental health issues that he has never taken medication for and major substance abuse.

This is our first time going away and I feel ready to pull the plug already

Where are you going, OP?

Some countries (e.g. Canada) are a lot more strict than others.

You have lots of time to apply to the court for permission to take her it's £200+ but worth it for peace of mind

So it looks like Spain is pretty lenient on this. When it’s just for a holiday (and I’m guessing you’ll have return tickets and UK passports or residency visas) then they only require permission from one parent. And they mostly are worried about Spanish nationals being taken out of Spain rather than foreign nationals coming over for a holiday. So it seems like you’re fine from the Spanish side of things, you just need to make sure it’s all ok with UK law.

https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/en/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/viajes/documentos/menores-solos.html

https://e-justice.europa.eu/289/EN/movingsettling_abroad_with_children?SPAIN&member=1

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/travel-documents-minors/indexamp_en.htm

I would have thought lanzarote will just waive you through. It's a small casual airport and you're going for a week with return tickets. You'll look obviously like what you are, a family group going for a weeks holiday.

It sounds like what you need to sort with a solicitor is just to make sure you’re covered by that 28day holding rule. Might be worth looking into a CAO so that you don’t have to go through this again next time you want to go on holiday abroad. It’s probably not going to be difficult to sort if he’s already been banned from unsupervised contact.

Do you have a court order or not?
If you don't or anything from the court/signed by him that stipulates you can take her for up to 28 days then yes you may need to take a letter.

I carry the court order every time I travel, yes it has been checked.

They'll barely even look up when stamping your passports. Don't worry about it. Revisit the thread next July to let us know 🤣