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Use our Travel forum for recommendations on everything from day trips to the best family-friendly holiday destinations.

Would you rule out a country as a holiday destination based on its political system?

104 replies

Takoneko · 06/11/2023 21:24

Just curious as to whether others have any “rules” about which countries they would or would not visit based on their politics?

I only ever visit democracies and would rule a destination out if it wasn’t at least in the “flawed democracy” category on the democracy index and wouldn’t want to even transit through an “authoritarian” country. In fact I’ve paid significantly more for flights to avoid giving money to airlines operating out of authoritarian countries.

For example, I’ve been to Taiwan and Hong Kong but would not go to mainland China or use a Chinese airline (and I probably wouldn’t go back to Hong Kong now), I also think Baku looks beautiful but would not go to Azerbaijan, would love to see the Pyramids and Valley of the Kings but won’t go to Egypt etc.

I don’t think l’ve ever noticed anyone else listing it as a consideration for a holiday destination on here. Am I unusual or are there lots of us who have a similar red line?

In some ways it’s a bit of an arbitrary line to draw, I don’t examine the origins of everything I buy and probably buy tons of things that are made in China but draw my line at going there. I’m not judging people who draw their line somewhere else… I was just wondering whether it’s an unusual criteria when choosing a holiday.

OP posts:
Coyoacan · 07/11/2023 15:20

I'm all for a good boycott myself but most of the hotels people stay in belong to huge transnationals and very little of your money stays in the country you visit. And none of you seem to care about the effect air travel has on global warming even though this last year has had such extraordinarily unpleasant weather

MrsTerryPratchett · 07/11/2023 15:28

Barbadossunset · 07/11/2023 09:43

Dubai is frequently mentioned on here as somewhere posters would never visit and judge those who do.
However, posters write in glowing terms about Cuba which has a poor human rights record, political opposition is forbidden and the 2021 protests were brutally repressed with protestors imprisoned without a trial.
How anyone with a political conscience thinks Cuba is an acceptable place to visit is beyond me.

We made an effort to try to buy local, stay in casa particulare, talk to locals as much as we were able, support people.

And I think that's probably my line. I'll go almost anywhere (not Sudan, Dubai or North Korea) but try to have homestays, spend money with the people who are actually suffering, get to know the real issues.

I've had a local in one country who was driving us say, "we can talk about these things in the car, but when we open the door, everything is wonderful here". Scary.

Barbadossunset · 07/11/2023 16:18

And none of you seem to care about the effect air travel has on global warming even though this last year has had such extraordinarily unpleasant weather.

This is true and I have read suggestions on here that maybe people should be allowed a certain number of flying hours a year.
This sounds a good idea surely for it to work it would need to be enforced worldwide and I can’t see that happening.

Wotsitfappe · 07/11/2023 16:23

Of course. But I don't know what the democracy index you mentioned is. I just use my own knowledge. But would be more focused also on human rights records and relative freedom rather than only the political system in a country.

FloweryName · 07/11/2023 16:42

OP your generalisation about the ‘Middle East’ is actually quite offensive.

It’s either blatant Islamophobia or ignorance about the differences in cultures across the various countries of the Middle East. The culture in Lebanon is completely different from the culture in Saudi Arabia for example. It’s weird how many people say they wouldn’t visit the Middle East because of the perception they have about them but wouldn’t think twice about going to the Maldives.

To answer your question, yes there are a few countries I wouldn’t want to visit because of their politics, but if I knew more about politics in other countries then there would probably be many more. I won’t go to Israel because of their crimes against humanity and Trump has put me right off America.

Shmithecat2 · 07/11/2023 16:55

StillWantingADog · 07/11/2023 09:55

I see how it can be hypocritical to visit Cuba but it’s only by visiting you can really appreciate what it’s like.
I tipped a lot (in hard currency) when I was there. Tips from foreign tourists improve the quality of life for some locals considerably. So that’s how I justified it.

But you can say that about any country - Saudi for example. Fascinating place. And 99.9% of anyone I tipped there were not Arab, but expats sending that money back to their families in their home countries. What's the difference?

mathanxiety · 07/11/2023 18:10

Pineapplepots · 06/11/2023 23:32

I find the American political system has too few safeguards and too many avenues for corruption of power. The elections of sheriffs for example is terrifying to me. That the person in charge of enforcing the law in a town can also accept campaign donations etc. The appointment judges by the President is another example. Both at the Supreme Court level and all the way down.

The recent Murdaugh cases has shown what democracy in small town America can turn into.

You mean the trial and sentencing of Alex Murdaugh? I would have thought that was an example of the strength of the system.

Sheriffs are county officials. They are not municipal police chiefs. Their role is to manage the county police force, staff the county jail, provide security for the courthouse, and ensure that laws on federal, state, and local levels are followed. The county attorney (i.e. state's attorney, and there are various other titles depending on state) holds the sheriff's department accountable and is himnor herself answerable to the voters. I don't know what is so ghastly about all that accountability.

Takoneko · 07/11/2023 18:39

FloweryName · 07/11/2023 16:42

OP your generalisation about the ‘Middle East’ is actually quite offensive.

It’s either blatant Islamophobia or ignorance about the differences in cultures across the various countries of the Middle East. The culture in Lebanon is completely different from the culture in Saudi Arabia for example. It’s weird how many people say they wouldn’t visit the Middle East because of the perception they have about them but wouldn’t think twice about going to the Maldives.

To answer your question, yes there are a few countries I wouldn’t want to visit because of their politics, but if I knew more about politics in other countries then there would probably be many more. I won’t go to Israel because of their crimes against humanity and Trump has put me right off America.

I’m sorry but have you got me muddled with another poster? I don’t think I’ve made any sweeping generalisations about the Middle East. I named specific countries that I would not visit. I didn’t make a generalised comment about the Middle East.

I don’t have any blanket rules about the Middle East. I just won’t visit anywhere that isn’t at least in the “flawed democracy” category in the Economist democracy index.

Even if I fundamentally disagree with the government of a place, I might visit if the people there have a chance to vote out that government and change it. I won’t visit somewhere that doesn’t have free elections and basic press freedoms.

OP posts:
stargirl1701 · 07/11/2023 18:45

Yes. I don't visit the Middle East. If I am raped, I don't want to be the one arrested.

Takoneko · 07/11/2023 19:29

Barbadossunset · 07/11/2023 09:43

Dubai is frequently mentioned on here as somewhere posters would never visit and judge those who do.
However, posters write in glowing terms about Cuba which has a poor human rights record, political opposition is forbidden and the 2021 protests were brutally repressed with protestors imprisoned without a trial.
How anyone with a political conscience thinks Cuba is an acceptable place to visit is beyond me.

I agree with this. Cuba is a repressive dictatorship and I wouldn’t visit it personally.

OP posts:
StillWantingADog · 07/11/2023 19:37

Shmithecat2 · 07/11/2023 16:55

But you can say that about any country - Saudi for example. Fascinating place. And 99.9% of anyone I tipped there were not Arab, but expats sending that money back to their families in their home countries. What's the difference?

admit that is similar. I suppose in my eyes I’d never contemplate going anywhere where women have such minimal rights and /or the country’s state sponsored oil production is directly contributing to climate change on a colossal scale.

people have different red lines and as I previously said, bad stuff happens everywhere.

Takoneko · 07/11/2023 19:54

Portakalkedi · 07/11/2023 10:35

I'd say it's more about religion/culture than politics. Would never wish to visit any country where women are veiled/oppressed/seen as lesser than men, and/or where foreign workers are doing things, in poor conditions, that local citizens think beneath them. Politics is more transient surely, depending on who is in power (of course apart from China etc where nutjob dictators give themselves the job for life).

The thing is that there are a lot of countries on the “China etc” list. There are 59 countries that the Economist democracy index considers to be authoritarian. That means they don’t have free and fair elections and basic freedoms are severely restricted.

Most of them are not typical holiday destinations but some (Like the UAE, China, Cuba, Vietnam or Egypt) have pretty significant tourism industries.

There’s a further 36 countries that are considered to have levels of corruption or repression that mean that they can no longer be considered functioning democracies. Some of those have really big tourist sectors (like Mexico).

In those countries politics is not transient and they can’t just choose a new government next time.

In contrast, there are only 24 countries considered full democracies.

OP posts:
JamSandle · 07/11/2023 19:54

Yes, more and more as I get older.

Takoneko · 07/11/2023 20:24

Zimunya · 07/11/2023 10:45

I don't buy Japanese products, and would never go to Japan. They're the only nation not to have apologised for atrocities commited in WW2, their needless and horrendous slaughter of whales sickens and appalls me, their release of Fukushima water into the ocean is awful, and their weird gynae sexual obsession is hard to understand.

You’re allowed to boycott whoever you want for whatever reason but some of this is just incorrect.

Japan is not “the only nation not to have apologised for atrocities committed in WW2”. The Japanese government has issued apologies. Japan has a problematic relationship with war memory regarding World War Two, but they are not alone in that and it isn’t true that they have never apologised.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

The US, on the other hand, has never apologised for the atomic bombings or the suffering caused as a result.

The water released after the Fukushima disaster was also released after it had been treated and the almost all radioactive material removed from the water. The sea water around Japan was tested extensively and stayed within safe limits. China did a big propaganda campaign to try to paint it as dangerous and irresponsible but it was the best option available and they did not just pump out radioactive waste with gay abandon.

I think you might want to reflect on whether the places you get your news might have an agenda. Those two examples are regular talking points of the Chinese Communist Party.

List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

OP posts:
LlynTegid · 07/11/2023 20:27

I won't consider the Middle East other than at some point visiting the Holy Land.

Turkiye off limits because of too many sleazy men as well.

zeddybrek · 07/11/2023 20:28

Dubai

Simonjt · 07/11/2023 20:32

Yes, we don’t travel anywhere that our existence is a crime, we also don’t travel anywhere that womens rights are an issue. If we couldn’t live safely as ourselves as an average earning local, we don’t visit as tourists.

Zimunya · 08/11/2023 10:04

@Takoneko First off, an apology – you’re quite correct that Japan is not the only nation not to have apologised, and I should have worded that differently. I was wrong, and I apologise. You are correct that the USA has not apologised for Hiroshima. If it’s any consolation, I’ve never visited America, and don’t intend to either (mainly because of their crazy gun laws, but I’m happy to add to the list).

Like many women on Mumsnet, I am looking at both current events and history with a view to where women in particular are being sidelined / ignored / not prioritised / forgotten about. My disquiet with Japan is on behalf of the so-called "Comfort Women" who feel very strongly that they have not received an appropriate apology. They are seeking a legislative apology put into motion and agreed upon by a majority of the Nationa Diet (the national legislature of Japan). This type of apology would be binding, unlike official statements. So, although there is a list of official apologies that have been issued, all have fallen short of what is required by many of these women. I should have made this clearer in my original post. To answer another of your points, as to where I get my information - I read a wide range of papers, both left wing and right wing (the truth is somewhere in the middle, usually), and I watch various news channels. I lived in Hong Kong during the democracy demonstrations, and then through the implementation of the draconian national security act. I could not be further from the beliefs and ethos of the Chinese Communist Party if I tried.

Quote: "The sea water around Japan was tested extensively and stayed within safe limits." Respectfully, I disagree with this. Greenpeace have said repeatedly that the radiological risks have not been fully assessed, and the biological impacts of tritium, carbon-14, strontium-90 and iodine-129 which will also be released in the water "have been ignored".

There have also been many objections from the Japanese people themselves about this decision. Fishing unions in Fukushima have urged the government for years not to release the water, arguing it would undo work to restore the damaged reputation of their fisheries. Masanobu Sakamoto, the head of the National Federation of Fisheries Cooperative Associations, said the group understood the release could be legally and scientifically safe but still feared reputational damage.

I don't think at this stage that we have enough information to state whether the release was safe, or not. That information will only be available in the future, as the ecological effect becomes better known.

Finally, although we accept that we disagree on many points, I appreciate your balanced and politely worded post in defence of Japan. It is pretty unusual on Mumsnet for disagreements not to descend fast into name calling and swearing, and I am grateful that you engaged in reasoned debate, and not abuse.
ありがとう

Tangoes · 08/11/2023 16:16

Everyone is free to spend their money wherever they wish.As someone upthread said your government still does business with these abhorrent countries.
When Theresa May came to power she met President Erdogan and the Crown Prince of Saudia Arabia within her first week..Sunak was very very quick to visit Israel and support Netanyahu too.
There may be people sitting in Belgium or China who won't visit the UK because of its imperialist past and its stance on Israel.

wigywhoo · 08/11/2023 16:33

Yes, visiting is tacit support. Democracy pretty much a red line - except Vatican City!

Elsiebear90 · 08/11/2023 16:39

No, I just do a bit of research and see if it would be relatively safe, so as a lesbian couple we ruled out Mauritius for that reason (as guidance was it is not safe), but went to the Maldives, which although homosexuality is illegal there (as is drinking alcohol and a lot of things westerners enjoy) most private resorts don’t bat an eyelid and even market themselves as gay friendly and do same sex “weddings”, we stayed at an LGBT friendly resort and had no issues at all.

We are careful outside of resorts by doing no pda, tell people we are sisters if they ask etc. It’s shit, but I love travelling so would rather do that than not go. We’ve been to Indonesia, Brazil, Turkey, Hungary etc never had any problems. I understand why other people might not go though.

HeavenCANTwait · 08/11/2023 16:41

Yes, there are very few places I WOULD go - my list only has about ten countries on it

Very happy to be Xenophobic here (against governments, not people)

saraclara · 08/11/2023 16:43

Good luck finding a country that doesn't have issues in the present or past that you'd have issues with.

Visiting countries and experiencing their cultures is how you learn more about the background and the environment that these attitudes stem from and inhabit.
Often it's surprising to find that (as in the case of Iran) the people and the government are not remotely the same thing. And foreign visitors help get that message out, and educate others.

Lovetogarden2022 · 08/11/2023 16:54

It's tough. I've definitely become more aware of issues in recent years. As someone with close friends who are gay, I'd find it hard to visit places that were openly oppressive to gay people.
Dubai is off the list, as is Oman. Qatar too. I would love to visit Jordan but I'm not sure (especially currently, given it's geography!!).
We have visited India many years ago, and would like to go back but the attitudes to women were quite astounding so I'd say that was off the list to be honest.
We have friends in Florida and it's actually very "liberal" where they live.
We tend to stick to Europe (Spain) these days though to be honest, but even then it's a catholic religious country with certain attitudes that I would question...

Alveus · 08/11/2023 17:07

saraclara · 08/11/2023 16:43

Good luck finding a country that doesn't have issues in the present or past that you'd have issues with.

Visiting countries and experiencing their cultures is how you learn more about the background and the environment that these attitudes stem from and inhabit.
Often it's surprising to find that (as in the case of Iran) the people and the government are not remotely the same thing. And foreign visitors help get that message out, and educate others.

Past and present are different things. I think it's understandable that, for example, gay people don't want to go to places where homosexuality is illegal or even punishable by death so they can "learn more".

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