how did people communicate in 16th century northern Europe?

[MaMaLa321]

I believe that French was the lingua franca of the upper classes.
But, I also think that, in the Nordic countries, middle German was the common language of the lower class, in the Low Countries it would be Flemish.
Is this true?
So, in effect, the classes were separated by language?
How would they have communicated?
I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this

I'm really late to this so you may not be checking back, but anyway: Idon't know about Nordic or Low Countries so much (I think you're right about Flemish/Dutch). But in England, the language by this point would be English. I think you might be thinking about the earlier period when you mention French? It used to be thought that, for a few centuries post-Conquest, the aristocrats spoke French and the peasants English. Actually it seems it was all rather more mixed than that, and people quite happily mingle the two (or chuck a bit of Latin in). You certainly see Frenchified English well into the fifteenth century and probably the sixteenth too. But IME it would be slightly odd for two English people to talk or write to each other in French at this period.

Some pretentious/clerical people write Latin.

sorry sarah I should have been more clear. I meant in mainland Northern Europe

Oh, I'm sorry! I think my pro-Euro sympathies are showing.

I don't think it'd be French in German-speaking countries; my understanding is Luther's Bible was so popular because it drew on lots of Germanic dialects spoken across different classes.

What are you working on? (I'm just being nosy!)

I'm researching Margaret of Austria (Charles V) aunt, potentially for a book, if I can make myself stop researching. So, French was the language of European courts at the time. But I'm also fascinated by the Beguines (who were concurrent) and they were not of the aristocracy, so I would love to know what they spoke.

Elizabeth I was fluent in six languages - or at least capable of reading, writing and comprehending them. From memory, English, French, Latin and Greek and I think Italian and Spanish. Although she was possibly one of the best educated monarchs we've ever had.. Hebrew might have been in there too!

Astonishing, isn't it?

Christ, how did it get from her to what we have now?!

This is such an interesting thread, OP.

Oh, that's fascinating about your research!

Mechthild of Magdeburg is far too early, but her writings were I think still very influential within and without beguinages, and that's German. Presumably most beguines would speak the local vernacular plus a bit of Latin as they weren't super educated? (I don't mean in a patronising way, hope that's clear!).

Forgive me asking - was French the language of all Northern European courts at the time? Anne of Cleves seems not to have known anything except German (I know that's a poor court)?

I've come across Mechthild, but didn't know that her language was german. I think you are right about what they spoke in Beguinages.
But then, how did different strata in society communicate. Perhaps they generally spoke a pidgin version of each other's tongues?
I don't know if all courts spoke french (would be interested to know).
Margaret was the sister in law of Katherine of Aragon, and Margaret of York asked her to help Katherine with her French (as that is what the ladies of the English court spoke). Also told her to give K a taste for wine, as English water wasn't drinkable.
Charles V said that he spoke "“ German to my horse, French to men, Italian to women and Spanish to God.”

I find it really unlikely all courts spoke French as an official language TBH.

Katherine of Aragon would have spoken Spanish in the Spanish court, certainly; she obviously knew Latin. French was a middle ground.

I don't think pidgin is the right word. Certainly, people code-switch a lot, but it's normalised in a way seems odd to modern-day English speakers, but is actually the norm in a lot of countries. Pidgin implies a simplification of grammar, doesn't it?

Would it not be natural for people simply to pick up the local vernacular (as you would from your wet nurse or whoever), and then also learn the fancier languages? So you'd understand most of what lower class people said?

This is about to send me off into a research frenzy... I'm fairly good at early mediaevel where basically it's various forms of French and Latin but now you've got me thinking!

yes, pidgin the wrong word.
I think this links in with how important it was to signify your rank (see the various sumptuary laws as well)
Margaret and her father (Maximillian) did not share a common language , except at the most basic level. His letters to her are interesting (and sometimes difficult) to read.
I am translating the Correspondance of Margaret as an on-off project, from the french that they were written in. Again, very interesting.

Oh, that's interesting. Difficult to read emotionally, or linguistically?

@QueenOfLabradors

This is about to send me off into a research frenzy... I'm fairly good at early mediaevel where basically it's various forms of French and Latin but now you've got me thinking!

It's not, though. Hebrew and Germanic dialects and Spanish and all sorts. I'm harping on because I think it's a really Anglocentric bias to stress the French.

linguistically. What with my mediocre O level french and the way that the language has changed over the last 500 years. Fascinating though.

So - about Spanish. Given that it was only united at this time, were aragonese and catalan very different? And which one took precedence?

When I saw your thread title I thought you meant Scandinavia, the Baltic and what is now north western Russia. But you seem to mean what I view as central Europe? I am wondering if Latin was still a lingua franca in certain domains- say, university.

So - about Spanish. Given that it was only united at this time, were aragonese and catalan very different?
No, they wouldn't be very different. Even nowadays a Spanish speaker could read and understand most of a Catalan text without knowing the language.

Ooh I'd say Central Europe was the Balkans...but that's another discussion.
Thanks about the Spanish.

Latin was the language of universities until very recently.

I think Castilian would be the prestige dialect? That's what gives rise to modern standard Spanish.

and Latin as lingua franca within the church I guess, until the Reformation at least, I guess

Yes. After the Reformation, clerics and educated men often use Latin anyway, because it was well known. This is (broadly) why universities continue using Latin for such a long time.

Perhaps also because it was impenetrable to other groups in society.